Nintendo DS GPU

[Murakami]

DS GPU is funny in that way. It actually has a couple features that were not seen until GF1 (and at least one that GF1 didn't have ), at any rate just the fact it has hw clipping and texture compression is enough to put it beyond PS1 era graphics hw.

Which one?

 

[Hardknock]

As for the 4mvert/30mpix figures - have you ever seen any 3D game on the DS that comes even close to these levels of performance? Because I bloody well haven't! Metroid Prime Hunters runs at 30fps at best on a tiny resolution screen (smaller than original PS), using very coarse geometry.

I don't know Guden... Metroid Hunters looks far beyond anything the PS1 or N64 did to me, almost approaching Dreamcast games (without texture filtering of course ). The draw distance, geometry, special effects and animated textures all looked amazing to me.

And as for the resolution, it was to my understanding that not many PS1 games ran at 320x240 but maybe I'm mistaken?

 

[Fox5]

DS's T&L unit has a configurable matrix processor, so its not entirely fixed funtion.

Has there ever been an entirely fixed function t&l unit? I think even the geforce had some programmability.

for what it's worth viewtiful joe runs 3d on both screens constantly.

Not throughout the entire game. The framerate when running on both screens is half what it is when running on one.

i suspect that was a pretty big incentive for nintendo to keep a cart port on the DS, beyond the obvious backwards compatability.

But what's the incentive to keep their cartridge factories open?

How is the overall power on the DS' GPU? Is it comprable to, say, a GF2MX?

Maybe more like PCX1...

And, it accomplishes everything within a 2.3W power budget. Damn neat I have to say!

Really? Higher than I would have expected. Is it 130nm or 90nm? (what about the DS Lite?)

 

[Guden Oden]

Really? Higher than I would have expected.

Really? Why is that? It's got dual (very bright) screens, dual CPUs, 3D hardware, wifi, stereo speakers... Then again, that figure might well include battery charging as well.

Is it 130nm or 90nm? (what about the DS Lite?)

Not the slightest idea. Not sure if process really plays that big a part anyway regarding power consumption when dealing with such low-clocked circuits, this isn't exactly my area of expertise, haha!

By the way, I seem to remember reading in some report where they tore a Lite apart that the SoC is the exact same between original DS and Lite...

 

[Teasy]

Has there ever been an entirely fixed function t&l unit? I think even the geforce had some programmability.

Perhaps but it was still fixed function as we've come to know the term with regards to T&L. I just meant that DS's GPU is a bit more programmable then old style fixed function T&L units.

 

[mboeller]

No, the DS is much weaker than even a GF2 MX, both when it comes to features and most importantly performance. Then again, the entire DS draws like 2.5W, which is maybe 1/10th of the GF2 MX.

2,5W? How do you come to this figure?

IMHO it's only 1/5th - 1/7th of this.

The old GS has a rechargeable battery with 850mAh with maybe 2.5 Volt, so slightly more than 2Wh. The battery lasts for 7h. The new DS-lite has an rechargeable battery with 1000mAh with lasts for only 5h due to the new brighter screens.

 

[AndY1]

The new DS-lite has an rechargeable battery with 1000mAh with lasts for only 5h due to the new brighter screens.

That depends on which brightess setting you use.

 

[Guden Oden]

2,5W? How do you come to this figure?

I read it off the back of the unit. Actually, it says 2.3W, not 2.5. Not that it really matters much, the DS is quite remarkable in its energy efficiency IMO.

 

[fearsomepirate]

What everyone else said about Metroid Hunters. That game is definitely beyond any of the FPS's we saw on N64 or PSx. IMO, DS seems to perform about like N64 did on those rare occasions when developers successfully broke through the bottlenecks. I'm thinking especially of World Driver Championship and Rogue Squadron.

 

[Fox5]

What everyone else said about Metroid Hunters. That game is definitely beyond any of the FPS's we saw on N64 or PSx. IMO, DS seems to perform about like N64 did on those rare occasions when developers successfully broke through the bottlenecks. I'm thinking especially of World Driver Championship and Rogue Squadron.

Isn't metroid hunters 60 fps? I can think of only like 2 N64 games that reached that framerate, all the best looking games generally dived in performance.

 

[Guden Oden]

MH is absolutely not 60fps. I'm not knocking the game, just stating a fact.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Isn't metroid hunters 60 fps?

It's not 60, but it's smoother than Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, and Turok.

 

[Guden Oden]

Turok runs at 30FPS (or 25 PAL) pretty much through the entire game with quite few exceptions. Goldeneye and PD have considerably lower framerates in general though.

 

[Rolf N]

I read it off the back of the unit. Actually, it says 2.3W, not 2.5. Not that it really matters much, the DS is quite remarkable in its energy efficiency IMO.

The DS Phat is rated at 1.6W. This isn't "consumption" however, on neither system. "Rated power" in electro-land is universally what is drawn from the supply -- either mains or an upstream AC adaptor -- on maximum sustained load conditions. In the case of the DS this includes charging the battery while atst playing with the backlight at full tilt.

I somehow couldn't find the appropriate screwdriver to open up my DS to check the battery, but a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation* puts the power consumption of the device at roughly 0.5W.
(the DS Lite will surely consume more if and when the screen brightness is turned up high)

*as follows:
Estimated play time on battery=10h
Estimated charging time while playing=3.5h
=> Charging is roughly 3x faster than depleting the charge
==> Charging needs 3x as much power (=energy/time) as playing
Power supply (=1.6W) can support both loads at the same time
=> 1.6W covers charging+playing=3*playing+playing=4*playing
=> playing=0.4W; err on the safe side and round up to 0.5W

 

[fearsomepirate]

Turok runs at 30FPS

I've only played Turok 2, which runs at or near 4 fps.

 

[Fox5]

I've only played Turok 2, which runs at or near 4 fps.

Not if you set it to low res with letterboxing, then it goes up to about 8 fps.
I think Turok 3 had an even worse framerate.
And Rage Wars actually had a decent framerate, though it wasn't nearly as good looking.

 

[Guden Oden]

I've only played Turok 2, which runs at or near 4 fps.

T2's framerate was BAD, but it wasn't friggin 4fps (on average), not even in hires mode. Sure there were places where fps dropped a lot, but most of the time I'd guess it's more like 15 (12 PAL)...

 

[fearsomepirate]

Beyond3D Forums: Where sarcasm goes over people's heads.

Square's done a nice job with FF3 DS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaVRSBHO4yc

 

[Rolf N]

Square's done a nice job with FF3 DS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaVRSBHO4yc

Yes they have
I hate to say it but that actually looks like they have anti-aliasing of the supersampled variety. Nuts! And beautiful!

 

[mboeller]

I somehow couldn't find the appropriate screwdriver to open up my DS to check the battery, but a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation* puts the power consumption of the device at roughly 0.5W.

As said before according to the c't ( issue 15??) the old DS has an battery with 850mAh and the new DS-lite one with 1000mAh. As far as I know this are lithium-ion cells. So I suspect they have 2,3-2,5 volts (AFAIR).
With ~2Wh-2,5Wh the old DS plays for 7h (according to c't) and the new DS-lite for 5h ( due to the bright screens).

So the old DS needs around 2/7 watt, and the new DS-lite 2,5/5 watt.


Manfred