Nforce2 DSP vs Audigy2 ZS

[phenix]

I have a nforce2 utra mainboard with MCP-T southbridge. It is not really soundstrom because the manufacturer used a standard Realtek ALC 650 DAC instead of Nvidia's recomendaton of higher quality DAC. So the board does not really feature a full fledged Soundstorm but it has the hardware DSP capabilities which is a good thing for CPU utilisations in heavy sound processing situations.

My question is this; does it really make sense to add a PCI sound card for the sake of sound quality? Audigy2 card should have a better DAC which means the analog sound output will be better compared to mainboard sound. During DVD playback the output would be 24bit for instance. But, how better is it? Is there a person who is familiar with both of the solutions and can give me an objective advice to what is worth and what is not? In other applications (games, DVD music, mp3) what would be the quality difference if I choose the add in card solution?

How about the performance? AFAIK Audigy 2 doesn't feature hardware dolby digital encoder so one would use CPU for such tasks. Is this true? It is not an issue for DVD playback since you are not stressing the CPU that much but in games which support dolby digital encoding this should make a difference? Can someone confirm if there is a CPU overhead when using dolby digital encoding on the fly in games?

Sorry I asked lots of questions probably the answer will be a mini review of Audigy 2 and Soundstrom but I really could not find anything useful in hardware review sites. At least nothing which adresses all the questions I asked.

 

[anaqer]

Before we can even hazard a guess as to whether you'll notice any kind of difference between the two or not, I think it's important to know what speaker setup you have and what sort of audio usage it sees most.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

The DAC in the audigy2 will be somewhat better than the one on the Realtek. If you have a decent speaker setup you'll probably be able to hear the difference. Having said that, there are other advantages and disadvantages to the soundstorm.

First, for DVD playback there is no dolby digital encoding going on, so overhead should be similar with both. Output quality over a digital connection should be the same for each. Over analog the audigy will sound better due to it's superiour DAC.

As far as games go, there is no official dolby encoding for any cards outside of the soundstorm. Basically, you'll be stuck with 6 channel direct output rather than dolby digital. This isn't really a problem if you're sound setup uses direct 6 channel analog inputs and you don't mind the DAC being in your soundcard. Personally, I am using my surround sound receiver and the soundstorm's optical output and use my receiver's DAC, so I am partial to the soundstorm for my setup. A different point for games is that an audigy2 will support EAX3/4 which should sound better and will probably have lower cpu utilization as well. This makes the audigy fairly attractive for games.

My personal opinion is that if you want to use your computer with a dolby digital receiver it's best to use the soundstorm for it's ability to encode dolby digital on the fly. If you don't care about dolby digital encoding and will be using analog outputs, you have a couple of choices. The Audigy 2 is really the best gaming card out there, and it also has a good quality DAC. Other cards like the Revo are not as good gaming cards, but argueably have slightly better analog output if you really care about audio quality.

Given that you are planing on using analog outputs (I think?) and already have a sounstorm, you'll need to decide if the money for the audigy2 is worth the upgraded DAC, and better gaming performance/quality.

Nite_Hawk

 

[Guden Oden]

With regards to nforce's realtime dolby encoding, well that is a nifty feature, but it's only going to make sound quality go down (as DD is lossy) when it is used. Its primary advantage is that it allows just one cable connection rather than three, as most (non-PC oriented) surround amps don't have the triple jacks required for analog surround.

If the amp in question has analog inputs the audigy would be better; no DD compression artefacts and EAX3/4 support.

 

[_xxx_]

Audigy is better in every respect if you don't care about DD-encoding. It's also compatible to everything out there and will never give you any problems.

If you're an audiophile, you should check out a card with Envy24 chip (all except Terratec - terrible driver support!), these have _much_ higher sound quality (analog) and mostly a SPDIF interface, but produce some overhead when EAX is used, so you may lose 2-3 fps in games with EAX on.

 

[phenix]

Before we can even hazard a guess as to whether you'll notice any kind of difference between the two or not, I think it's important to know what speaker setup you have and what sort of audio usage it sees most.

You are right. I have a cheap 5.1 speaker set up from Creative.
Creative Inspire speakers I guess.

EDIT: But I am considering to change to a better set up for higher quality if it makes sense.

 

[phenix]

The DAC in the audigy2 will be somewhat better than the one on the Realtek. If you have a decent speaker setup you'll probably be able to hear the difference. Having said that, there are other advantages and disadvantages to the soundstorm.

First, for DVD playback there is no dolby digital encoding going on, so overhead should be similar with both. Output quality over a digital connection should be the same for each. Over analog the audigy will sound better due to it's superiour DAC.

As far as games go, there is no official dolby encoding for any cards outside of the soundstorm. Basically, you'll be stuck with 6 channel direct output rather than dolby digital. This isn't really a problem if you're sound setup uses direct 6 channel analog inputs and you don't mind the DAC being in your soundcard. Personally, I am using my surround sound receiver and the soundstorm's optical output and use my receiver's DAC, so I am partial to the soundstorm for my setup. A different point for games is that an audigy2 will support EAX3/4 which should sound better and will probably have lower cpu utilization as well. This makes the audigy fairly attractive for games.

My personal opinion is that if you want to use your computer with a dolby digital receiver it's best to use the soundstorm for it's ability to encode dolby digital on the fly. If you don't care about dolby digital encoding and will be using analog outputs, you have a couple of choices. The Audigy 2 is really the best gaming card out there, and it also has a good quality DAC. Other cards like the Revo are not as good gaming cards, but argueably have slightly better analog output if you really care about audio quality.

Given that you are planing on using analog outputs (I think?) and already have a sounstorm, you'll need to decide if the money for the audigy2 is worth the upgraded DAC, and better gaming performance/quality.

Nite_Hawk

Thanks for the reply. Very informative. You are right, I dont have a Dolby digital receiver indeed. I use my speakers on analog outputs so the quality of analog output is prime importance for me. So far I am really not very impressed with Realtek's sound quality. It seems the best solution for now (for me) is going for Audigy2 zs card. They are fairly cheap now. I can find one for as low as 50 euro.

 

[Guden Oden]

If you're an audiophile, you should check out a card with Envy24 chip

Um, envy24's hardware acceleration is ROTTEN. Basically, it doesn't have any. As for sound quality, I seriously doubt it'll have any tangible advantage over Audigy2 ZS, if any at all. It's a budget solution from a budget company after all.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

If you're an audiophile, you should check out a card with Envy24 chip

Um, envy24's hardware acceleration is ROTTEN. Basically, it doesn't have any. As for sound quality, I seriously doubt it'll have any tangible advantage over Audigy2 ZS, if any at all. It's a budget solution from a budget company after all.

The results prove that Aureon 7.1 Space is a very high class product, which surpassed Audigy2 in all tests and was just a little worse than the more expensive DMX 6fire.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multimedia/display/terratec-aureon71_10.html

Quite simply, the Revolution 7.1 delivers the best sound quality I've heard from a sub-$100 audio card, making it an ideal addition to any PC used primarily for audio, video, or DVD playback... ...Even with off-the-shelf CDs, the Revolution 7.1 sounds much clearer than the original Audigy, and generally better than the Audigy2.

http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2003q2/maudio-rev/index.x?pg=8

I still can't recommend the Audigy2 ZS to audiophiles, however. It has exceptional but not audiophile-grade sound, no matter what Creative PR might tell you.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/120/10/

What we have with the TerraTec DMX 6-fire is a quality high-end 24 bit/96kHz sound card that has some good gaming capability... ...The Audigy2 is a high-end gaming sound card that has some high-end 24 bit/96kHz sound capability... ...The 6-fire out shines everything else I’ve heard, including some very expensive separate home stereos.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/content/30/10/

The audigy2 series of cards are very good. They have very good quality sound, and the best gaming performance and effects quality of basically any soundcard out on the market. On the other hand, boards based on the envy24 (like the terratec 6fire) and based on the envy24HT (like the Revo) appear to have somewhat better music reproduction and signal quality. Granted, this is extremely dependent on which DACs are paired with the audio processors, and the envy24 itself has absolutely nothing to do with that. Still, it proves that the envy24 is good enough of a chip that pairing it with a top notch DAC bests the audigy2 for sound reproduction.

Nite_Hawk

 

[_xxx_]

If you're an audiophile, you should check out a card with Envy24 chip

Um, envy24's hardware acceleration is ROTTEN. Basically, it doesn't have any. As for sound quality, I seriously doubt it'll have any tangible advantage over Audigy2 ZS, if any at all. It's a budget solution from a budget company after all.

Envy24 is used in the whole bunch of higher-end studio cards. The cards mostly have superb sound quality when compared to Audigy or whatever. The complete signal path is 24 bit, as opposed to Audigy's 16-bit internals. Also, cards equipped with Envy24 have much lower latency for recording, as well as 24 channel mixer in HW (ever tried to play a Cubase project with 24 tracks in realtime with Audigy?). The HW-acceleration for _games_ sucks, but for any kind of studio work it simply _rocks_.

 

[pcchen]

Ugh, Audigy 2 does not have 16 bit internal precision. Its DSP has more than 32 bits precision IIRC. Actually, the same DSP is used in some high end EMU sound cards (1212M and 1820M) for hardware accelerated FX effects.

The real problem of Audigy 2 is the forced SRC (sample rate conversion). Anything less than 48 kHz are converted to 48 kHz, and it can't be turned off. This is especially bad when playing Audio CD contents (44.1 kHz).

I think the real factor affecting audio quality is the analog part, i.e. the DAC, and the OP. The DAC on Audigy 2 is not very high end, of course. EMU's 1212M, on the other hand, uses high end DAC, but it's OP is not that good though.

 

[Deepak]

On related note, someone I know has bought Bose speakers and he says quality is superb. I always wanted to know why Bose speakers are so highly rated. Are they "the best" in world? Do they deserve the price they quote?

 

[nobody]

On related note, someone I know has bought Bose speakers and he says quality is superb. I always wanted to know why Bose speakers are so highly rated. Are they "the best" in world? Do they deserve the price they quote?

Bose speakers are overrated in any way. They are just cheap (minor quality) crap.
I'll never understand people buying such things...

 

[_xxx_]

Ugh, Audigy 2 does not have 16 bit internal precision. Its DSP has more than 32 bits precision IIRC. Actually, the same DSP is used in some high end EMU sound cards (1212M and 1820M) for hardware accelerated FX effects.

The real problem of Audigy 2 is the forced SRC (sample rate conversion). Anything less than 48 kHz are converted to 48 kHz, and it can't be turned off. This is especially bad when playing Audio CD contents (44.1 kHz).

I think the real factor affecting audio quality is the analog part, i.e. the DAC, and the OP. The DAC on Audigy 2 is not very high end, of course. EMU's 1212M, on the other hand, uses high end DAC, but it's OP is not that good though.

Audigy's processing is 16 bit, with limited abilities for doing 24 bit, probably through some kind of hack. Otherwise you'd be able to produce 32 bit .wav's, which you definitely can't. It might be doing some internal processing in 32 bit, but only in some stages of the pipeline, that's all. Envy24 is 24 bit all the way through.

On related note, someone I know has bought Bose speakers and he says quality is superb. I always wanted to know why Bose speakers are so highly rated. Are they "the best" in world? Do they deserve the price they quote?

Depends of what you consider being superb. If you do a spectral analisys, you'll see that Bose indeed has the speakers which are the very best in producing the output closest to the original signal. Many people don't like it though, since it's not what we're used to hear most of the time. The best thing to do is to go to the store and decide for yourself. I worked at Bose for a year in automotive division and there's surely no better car audio out there. Their surround stuff is also awsome. I'd like to have one of those for my PC (with Envy24 feeding it ). But don't touch those little stereo Radio/CD combos, they suck IMHO.

 

[Luminescent]

Audigy's processing is 16 bit, with limited abilities for doing 24 bit, probably through some kind of hack. Otherwise you'd be able to produce 32 bit .wav's, which you definitely can't. It might be doing some internal processing in 32 bit, but only in some stages of the pipeline, that's all. Envy24 is 24 bit all the way through.

Your right about Audigy, but I remember reading that Audigy 2 sported 32-bit internal precision.

 

[_xxx_]

Marketing

The only true difference between Audigy 1 and 2 is that A2 can output 192 KHz for DVD audio playback. The rest is pretty much the same.

 

[DSC]

http://home.earthlink.net/~busenitz/bs.html

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

Bose? More commonly known as "Better Off with Something Else" or "Buy Other Sound Equipment"?

Want really high quality speakers that can be used with PCs?

http://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/aego2/intro/framset.html

http://www.koiaudio.com/Main/Press.html

 

[DSC]

As for Creative Sound Mangler, I present this to everyone.

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74021

 

[Guden Oden]

Still, it proves that the envy24 is good enough of a chip that pairing it with a top notch DAC bests the audigy2 for sound reproduction.

Is it a TANGIBLE difference tho? Ie, can you even hear it with typical computer amps/speakers and over the whine of cooling fans, harddrives?

With all pros and cons weighed into the equation I think there's no doubt whatsoever A2ZS spanks E24, mainly because most people do not record ASIO audio, most people do not mix 24 tracks in Cubase, etc. And sound quality diff is sure to be negligible at best even if it can be heard using the equipment most people possess. Buying E24 because it purportedly gives better sound is a bum deal IMO considering how much worse the chip performs in 3D gaming situations.

You want pro audio, then buy a pro audio card... Gaming si teh Audigy territory.

 

[swaaye]

My Audigy 2 ZS sounds tangibly better than my SBLive 5.1 and I got the Limited Gamers Edition that actually comes with real, quality games for $57!!!! L3333et! (Well I will have when the best buy rebate comes back in half a year)

And, in addition, I also picked up some Klipsch Promedia 2.1s the other day and OMG are they a FAR FAR step above my old Altec Lansings in EVERY conceivable and imaginable way. (I use some Logitech Z340s as my rear channel. So I have 4.2 audio I suppose)

EAX4 is quite interesting. I've tried Halo (came with the card) and Jedi Academy (came too) and both sounded quite nice and freshened with the EAX4 environment effects and Audigy 2's superior 3D positioning and clarity.

I seriously wish somebody else would enter the market and give Creative a run for their money. However, it's NEVER going to happen until people develop more interest in audio quality. Most don't give a crap if they are using a Realtek codec with what sounds like mono audio. They have no clue what they are missing, and some can't tell the difference anyway. Audio apparently isn't all that important to most humans...