Next-Generation NVMe SSD and I/O Technology [PC, PS5, XBSX|S]

6 chips vs 1 chip?

They are forever bound to using 6 chips going forward for the entire generation I think. I'm not sure that's in favour of Sony in terms of cost especially as 1TB modules drop in price.

* 6x the surface area for cooling, the 6x amount of power...

* 6x the chance of getting a defective chip... a single one of those modules going defective affects your bandwidth, you'd have to RMA your PS5.

They made a huge move sure, but not sure if it's cheaper or will be for them going forward.

Typically as consoles reduce in cost to manufacture, they increase the amount of storage size. So this poses a slightly different challenge for PS5 than it would any other manufacturer, because Sony needs to increase their storage by 6x chips. Series consoles, for instance, would only need to move up to the next chip size, in this case, Series S can move to 1TB and Series X to 1 2TB when those come down enough in price.

I think there's a lot of discussion where people feel that MS is milking everyone for their $$$ for being proprietary, when many consumer NVMe drives are still not using single 1TB modules. So I'm unsure as to how much is cost for the single chip vs. being proprietary. I think in good time, these chips will become the norm as smart phones etc begin to take them on
Well, I guess there is a minor error in your assumptions. You won't reach the high speeds with one chip (currently). Minimum is 2-3 chips so far (as far as I know). So they would always. Even with the nand chip of the xbox ssd, it would be at least 2 chips, with high temperatures on a small area. So a multi-chip design was set from day one. And it should still be cheaper to user 4 slower chips to reach the same bandwidth than 2 high performance chips. Going to 6 chips would than only be another price adjustment (I guess).
Defects in those chips should also be a minor problem as nand-chips are easy to produce (without many errors) and thanks to the even lower clocks (with 6 chips) the risk should be actually minimal.

And so far, I don't think they would need to always use 6 chips. They now support almost any 5.5GB/s SSD so using such a thing in the future should be possible without compatibility issues (once the full update is out).
 
Well, I guess there is a minor error in your assumptions. You won't reach the high speeds with one chip (currently).
Unless I am wrong this is 1 chip and 1 controller

Fast forward to SSD removal at 3:04. This is also identical to the expansion card


as per the claim that more smaller chips is cheaper than 1 big one; I counterpoint: If that were true PS5 would have 1TB of storage, it has 875. 7 chips would have them equal here in terms of storage but they went with 6 and 8 would be 1.2 TB nearly but they didn't go with that either.
 
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I think the really curious part is why Sony went with a custom controller. Was there simply not an off-the-shelf controller that's fast enough at the time of design?
 
Ratchet & Clank is probably not the be all end all of data streaming demands in the PS5.
It's a 1st year game, meaning it wasn't developed on final PS5 hardware.
Sure, most multiplatforms will be stuck to 2.5GB/s, but Sony's 1st parties will keep raising the bar on the consoles strengths.


I don't think devs would worry about someone potentially seeing an increase of 0.45 seconds in loading or streaming of assets.
Constantly seeing a 0.45s delay in asset streaming would be painful to watch.
Regardless, in the future those 15% (which again, could be much more in later 1st party games) could mean the difference between hitting the frame on time or not.


ony did say a bit faster, and now they're recommending a drive that's exactly the same speed. So the messaging isn't completely consistent.
The difference is they'll now redirect a game to the internal storage if the external one isn't up to the task. They're basically admitting that most games won't take advantage of the increased number of priority lanes in the internal controller.


They are forever bound to using 6 chips going forward for the entire generation I think.
Why would they be bound to 6 chips on future revisions and upgrades? All they need to do is guarantee the same or higher throughput and same or lower latency.
A year ago, the 8-channel controllers with 3 priority lanes that were available in the marker couldn't satisfy their specs so they resorted to a custom 12 channel controller, but given the opportunity to take off-the-shelf controllers with similar speeds they'll probably jump to whatever is cheaper.
 
Unless I am wrong this is 1 chip and 1 controller

Fast forward to SSD removal at 3:04. This is also identical to the expansion card


as per the claim that more smaller chips is cheaper than 1 big one; I counterpoint: If that were true PS5 would have 1TB of storage, it has 875. 7 chips would have them equal here in terms of storage but they went with 6 and 8 would be 1.2 TB nearly but they didn't go with that either.
Yes, this is one chip but it is just half the speed of the PS5 solution.
Even more chips would lead to an even larger interface and larger controllerchip and space requirements on the board.
So I guess there must be a certain point where chips vs error rate vs latency vs interface width vs space requirements vs cost is at the sweet spot.

But my whole point is, now that they even support 5.5gb/s SSDs which should be slower than the internal SSD they are open to support just this in the future to save some costs as the prices for these will go down.

And I am really certain that a slower drive wouldn't change much at best loading screens might be a bit more prominent. Should affect the streaming capabilities as with random access reads the bandwidth will go down and at that point even the read rate of a bit slower and faster SSD should not be that different.
 
Beware that they might not know what are not the most intensive I/O scenes (the ones actually bottlenecked by the SSD speed and not the rest of I/O path). Insomniac did find differences (up to 15% slower) when testing the most demanding SSD stressing areas with slower than recommended SSDs. Which could be the difference between a scene with heavy pop-in (or stuttering) or not.

Also they probably didn't pushed PS5 SSD to its max yet. It could get worse in later more demanding games.

 
Why would they be bound to 6 chips on future revisions and upgrades? All they need to do is guarantee the same or higher throughput and same or lower latency.
A year ago, the 8-channel controllers with 3 priority lanes that were available in the marker couldn't satisfy their specs so they resorted to a custom 12 channel controller, but given the opportunity to take off-the-shelf controllers with similar speeds they'll probably jump to whatever is cheaper.
My general assumption here is that to keep costs low and performance high, the current custom controller made by Sony designed specifically around a configuration. That being said, I have some doubts that they designed the controller to support multiple configurations of chips while keeping the bandwidth the same. So that's why I say they are bound.

If they make revisions of PS5, one has to ask why they would revise the controller, you introduce more support, more possible bugs, more R&D, you have to create a new assembly and production process and the R&D and firmware writing as well and checking all the back support. While technically possible, it's not financially sensible. PS5 already supports expandable storage in the form of m.2 expansion, is there any reason why they would redesign the PS5 SSD solution to save money when those costs can be passed to the consumer? (which they are still at this point in time breaking their previous records?)

My general thought here is that the SoC node shrink is part of the original contract with AMD, but these SSD controllers are not likely to have these types of clauses. Redesigning the controller would likely go with having a new variant of PS5, like a PS5 Pro for instance (though I'm fairly bullish that there will be no mid-gen refreshes this generation, PS5 already uses a butterfly setup, and chiplets may be a price point better reserved for PS6). But I don't see them redoing the PS5 controller for a newer revision of PS5.
 
Yes, this is one chip but it is just half the speed of the PS5 solution.
Even more chips would lead to an even larger interface and larger controllerchip and space requirements on the board.
So I guess there must be a certain point where chips vs error rate vs latency vs interface width vs space requirements vs cost is at the sweet spot.

But my whole point is, now that they even support 5.5gb/s SSDs which should be slower than the internal SSD they are open to support just this in the future to save some costs as the prices for these will go down.

And I am really certain that a slower drive wouldn't change much at best loading screens might be a bit more prominent. Should affect the streaming capabilities as with random access reads the bandwidth will go down and at that point even the read rate of a bit slower and faster SSD should not be that different.
Right, the cheapest method of increasing bandwidth is by increasing the number of chips, versus building a single large chip to do it. No doubts, but in the reverse it's the most expensive way to increase storage. So the discussion about cost in this case has to take into account both. This is like saying everything should be esram or embedded L3 cache because of how much bandwidth it generates, without taking into account how little storage it provides. Both need to be part of the discussion which is what I wanted to point out. The claim I wanted to debate is that what Sony did with PS5 changed the SSD market, and now everyone is following suit. On that particular claim, I would lean that PS5 took advantage of having the realestate to support 6 chips in a surface area much larger than the largest M.2 slot, and access significantly better cooling, such that it made more sense for them to roll their own solution while hard drive manufacturers still needed to figure out how to make it work in a stick format.

I'm fairly certain PS5's internal storage costs are going to be locked for a while at 875 GB until they can secure getting 6x of the next largest size (the current memory size of their chips doesn't seem very popular either). Sony will rely and market their external SSD M2 expansion method as the way to increase storage.

MS should be in an 'ok' position with respect to bringing the cost of the storage down. Their current SSD setup is really just an off the shelf component that fits into that specific m.2 form factor, nothing really more. Like how everyone here is all onboard for 3P SSD support on PS5 looking for a better deal, MS is also looking for a better deal for their internal drives for their Series consoles; the ssd come with controllers and memory chips, swapping them out for another manufacturer is just a matter of ensuring requirements and tolerances are met.

We are very likely soon to see a Series S console at 1TB before either XSX or PS5 move to anything larger.

TLDR; on the subject of cost, since the main debate is around 3P SSD drives being faster and cheaper than the proprietary drive of MS; you should consider carrying that through to the total cost of the system as well. While there is solid guarantee that 3P nvme drives will be much faster, there is no guarantee it will be much cheaper given the chip differential.

Currently the largest mobile phones use 512GB chip for storage, by next generation they will be at 1TB. And as time goes on 1TB chips should be very popular. That means the price of the console and the price of the expansion card should come down together granting larger savings than what is being discussed here. But there is fair commentary that 'today', there is no reason to have shipped a 1TB chip, when perhaps you could have gotten away with 2x512GB chips and still get to 2500MB read speeds for cheaper and those may have been able to fit on the 2240 form factor -- 4x256 would have required chips on both sides which its clear it won't fit.
 
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I think the really curious part is why Sony went with a custom controller. Was there simply not an off-the-shelf controller that's fast enough at the time of design?

Possibly, considering that the PS5 originally was thought to launch in 2019, but was pushed to 2020.

Tommy McClain
 
Beware that they might not know what are not the most intensive I/O scenes (the ones actually bottlenecked by the SSD speed and not the rest of I/O path). Insomniac did find differences (up to 15% slower) when testing the most demanding SSD stressing areas with slower than recommended SSDs. Which could be the difference between a scene with heavy pop-in (or stuttering) or not.

Also they probably didn't pushed PS5 SSD to its max yet. It could get worse in later more demanding games.

also possible thats 6 priority levels doesn't change that much and indeed 5.5gb/s is enough for all casses, hw kraken decompressor is probably more important and it also work with additional ssd's
in terms of performance, that custom decompressor equates to nine of our Zen 2 cores
 
One thing I know for sure is Sony has completely upended the high speed SSD market by going custom. SSD manufacturers are having to lower prices and increase performance to match. This says to me that prices were overly inflated to begin with. Even MS could only manage a 2.4GBs drive with the same MSRP. Sony is absolutely saving money this way.

Eh? NVME prices are still almost exactly the same (with some small reductions in price that line up with historical NVME drive price reductions) as they were prior to the PS5 even being announced. The PS5 had literally no effect on NVME drive pricing.

Even the 7.0 GB/s drives that launched around the PS5 "deep dive" like the WD Black SN850 (which Mark Cerny is using) has only dropped what one would expect it to if the PS5 didn't exist. It launched at an MSRP of 249 USD for a 1 TB drive, and its MSRP over 1 year later is now 229 USD.

Regards,
SB
 
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also possible thats 6 priority levels doesn't change that much and indeed 5.5gb/s is enough for all casses, hw kraken decompressor is probably more important and it also work with additional ssd's

Was thinking this before. The decompression probably plays a larger role then the drives themselfs. Im very eager to see what higher end GPU's can pull off with RTX IO/Direct Storage etc on 7300mb/s drives. We'd be looking at DDR3 speeds then (but still not the latency etc).
 
Was thinking this before. The decompression probably plays a larger role then the drives themselfs. Im very eager to see what higher end GPU's can pull off with RTX IO/Direct Storage etc on 7300mb/s drives. We'd be looking at DDR3 speeds then (but still not the latency etc).
I don't think gpus will be on pair with dedicated hardware
 
GPU's are 'dedicated hardware'. Also NV disagrees with your thoughts, last years presentation showed higher numbers then the PS5's already.
question is how good will be during gameplay end switching contex for gpus calculations ? thats was one of reason physx on nvida gpus died as it wasn't best, but future will show
 
question is how good will be during gameplay end switching contex for gpus calculations ? thats was one of reason physx on nvida gpus died as it wasn't best, but future will show

Physx still hurts i see. It wasnt even all that bad since NV integrated the tech into their gpu's. Anyway, Any RTX GPU with a 5.5gb/s or faster drive will comfortably outperform the PS5's SSD operations.
 
question is how good will be during gameplay end switching contex for gpus calculations ? thats was one of reason physx on nvida gpus died as it wasn't best, but future will show

I can't find the link right now but Nvidia have claimed that the performance impact on the GPU is negligible. It would presumably be done via async compute.

EDIT: Found it:

https://back2gaming.com/guides/nvidia-rtx-io-in-detail/

"When asked about the performance hit of RTX IO on the GPU itself, an NVIDIA representative responded that RTX IO utilizes only a tiny fraction of the GPU, “probably not measurable”.
 
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