Next-Generation NVMe SSD and I/O Technology [PC, PS5, XBSX|S]

[davis.anthony]

Mesh Shaders are the future of geometry in the 3D pipeline - they're like AMD's RDNA1 primitive shaders (as seen in PS5) but better. But better doesn't count for much until someone uses it - and if a game needs to get by with vertex shaders for compatibility reasons it's probably not a priority to bother with Mesh Shaders. Fortunately, UE5 has incorporated Mesh Shader, but I expect it will still take time to find adoption and have its use fully refined.

Hasn't Nanite in UE5 basically killed off Mesh Shaders now?

I know UE5 uses Mesh shaders for triangles larger than 6 pixels but I don't expect Mesh Shaders to be a thing like they were supposed to be with Nanie around inspiring other such methods.

 

[Quadbitnomial]

And Tempest Audio which so far hasn't materialised anything AFAIK. Plus where's the system for users to create their individual HRTF profile? Plus 'Raytracing' for audio, shadows, GI, etc.

Every audio on PS5 is rendered by Tempest Audio.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

PS5's SSD/IO stuff is very good - outstanding even - for a 2020 system. And I remember developers being very pleased about it. I don't remember any developers talking about how it was revolutionary beyond the Xbox system though. Better perhaps, but not "revolutionary beyond".

Understandably for business relationships reasons they won't be excessive in their praise for one console over another, but unofficial and off the cuff remarks were clear. Prior to the console release, there was a Resetera member who went by Matt, confirmed to be a developer that works (worked?) on both consoles. Although it seems he has since deleted his account, his thoughts on the console ssd and i/o comparisons are below

 

[I'mDudditz!]

Rockstar are very disciplined in terms of how geometry and material data is spread out across maps and scenes - predictable and relatively stable streaming performance is core to how they work. Whatever they do will work excellently in all or almost all cases from a relatively modest NVMe drive. They have excellent artists creating great assets with memory budget always front and centre during creation.

Of course Rockstar will make sure all versions of GTA 6 will be very well optimized for every platform. That doesn't stop them from allowing their streaming tech to scale with the HW capabilities of each console i/o architecture.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

Mesh Shaders are the future of geometry in the 3D pipeline - they're like AMD's RDNA1 primitive shaders (as seen in PS5) but better. But better doesn't count for much until someone uses it - and if a game needs to get by with vertex shaders for compatibility reasons it's probably not a priority to bother with Mesh Shaders. Fortunately, UE5 has incorporated Mesh Shader, but I expect it will still take time to find adoption and have its use fully refined.

Maybe UE5 the engine supports mesh shaders but Nanite tech certainly doesn't. Epic mentioned that Nanite software solution runs much faster than mesh shader pipeline which is why it isn't used for Nanite rendering.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

So far, even Sony first party studios haven't delivered anything a reasonably modest PC can't match

What is your definition of reasonably modest?

, or that wouldn't be very easily within reach of what the current Xbox consoles can do.

This will forever be impossible to test, so we just have to go with on paper specs; The PS5 i/o is 130% faster than Series consoles therefore we can only assume Sony first party games would run at least twice as fast on a hypothetical, never-to-happen, xbox port during i/o limited situations.

At 'full level loads' the PS5 would in practice have a bit of an advantage if you could mostly eliminate CPU or other constraints, but in terms of traversal there are limits to how much data you will need to change per second or per frame for a given degree of data density across the game world - and the top end of that is heavily affected by resolution and platform memory.

Well, there is this little game called Spider-Man 2 set to release in a couple of months that should provide some answers.

 

[Rootax]

Some extreme situations of the PS5 IO system could be in designing something like Doctor's Strange portal rooms in the sanctum, where each door leads to a completely different biome that is visible through the door/portal. And you can go into each one instantly, maybe even go back and forth.

View attachment 9389

Another interesting concept is the Tesseract scene in Interstellar where you can quickly scroll through space and time of a region in space.

View attachment 9390

However all of these things are doable just fine with enough RAM, or with a combination of RAM and fast SSD. Or some clever data planning and management.

Imo the main stength of the PS5 i/o system is that it just works, and you don't have to think about it or rework everything ? From what I read here and there Sony did a good job with the api/dev kits and everything is well oiled.
While on PC we have 2-3 DS title where DS isn't helping at all (but the counter argument is it's not needed in the first place, maybe). For now. I don't doubt we will see engines and titles running better with DS at some point.

 

[Remij]

Understandably for business relationships reasons they won't be excessive in their praise for one console over another, but unofficial and off the cuff remarks were clear. Prior to the console release, there was a Resetera member who went by Matt, confirmed to be a developer that works (worked?) on both consoles. Although it seems he has since deleted his account, his thoughts on the console ssd and i/o comparisons are below

Ok... but what does Sony really have to show for it up until this point?

Ratchet works just fine on PCs... and would work just fine on Xbox Series consoles. What else is there so far? In general 3rd party games load very similarly on both platforms because they aren't designed specifically around the PS5 hardware. This is essentially the same situation as PC gamers bragging about how incredibly powerful their hardware is and console gamers ribbing them because nothing is really built to take actual advantage of it.

I'm sure the PS5 is an easier platform to develop for and developers prefer developing for it, and I think it's quite clear at this point that Sony developed the better platform. PS5 is cheaper to produce, performs just as well in most cases, and they have some extra I/O performance to make their developer's lives easier... but I feel like Matt was a little high off his own Kool-Aid back then.

 

[cheapchips]

Hasn't Nanite in UE5 basically killed off Mesh Shaders now?

Given the stupidly long development times of blockbuster titles, I guess there's a chance some third party engine has committed to mesh shaders over Nanite style clusters.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Maybe UE5 the engine supports mesh shaders but Nanite tech certainly doesn't. Epic mentioned that Nanite software solution runs much faster than mesh shader pipeline which is why it isn't used for Nanite rendering.

Nanite does us Mesh shaders for larger geometry:

Unreal Engine 5, [UE5 Developer Availability 2022-04-05]

Yeah there's a distance where they turn off shadow casting from the NPCs in sandbox. I'm not entirely sure if that distance/decision was revisited later in the project though; it may not be as necessary as it was earlier on. That said, the NPCs are indeed non-Nanite (skinned, etc) and thus they...

forum.beyond3d.com

Nanite already uses mesh/prim shaders (check out the shader source) for hardware rasterization. As with any other features, I'm sure we'll continue to evaluate and use those that make sense.

 

[iroboto]

Hasn't Nanite in UE5 basically killed off Mesh Shaders now?

I know UE5 uses Mesh shaders for triangles larger than 6 pixels but I don't expect Mesh Shaders to be a thing like they were supposed to be with Nanite around inspiring other such methods.

DX is about choice and options. Mesh Shaders enable fine grain control over geometry up front on the 3D pipeline driving massive performance gains over the previous FF method.
Nanite is a proprietary compute method that only works on Nanite.

These are very different things, and if you aren't using Nanite, then these hardware features exist on the card (albeit at less optimization) but they exist none the less and it enables developers to continue to drive innovation and performance in their own engines, without having to go with one of the big companies in which you'd be at the mercy of their development goals.

Nanite is not without it's own set of pros and cons. It's incredible but it may not be useful for each type of game, but Mesh Shaders could drop in and replace the front of the 3D pipeline for a lot of games without needing to commit to the beast that is Nanite.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

Ok... but what does Sony really have to show for it up until this point?

Ratchet, Demon Souls, Astro, Upcoming Spider-Man 2. Healthy number considering the extended cross gen period.

Ratchet works just fine on PCs...

It can run fine depending on the PC hardware, as one would hope/expect for a 2 year old game. Still the highest end pc hardware can not match the most i/o dependent section of the game in speed, as Alex demonstrated. Perhaps it's academic, but this is a tech forum, so noteworthy nonetheless.

and would work just fine on Xbox Series consoles.

I love how you tried to sneak this one in there but we both know you have no proof for this claim.

but I feel like Matt was a little high off his own Kool-Aid back then.

And this is a baseless and slanderous feeling that you have. Matt is/was a multiplatform developer with no dog in the fight. He was just going off of his experience working with the two consoles. Some people just refuse to take in knowledgeable objective opinions as such if it doesn't align with their views.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

Nanite does us Mesh shaders for larger geometry:

Ok but when discussing Nanite, it's generally understood we're analyzing it's capabilities with subpixel geometry rendering.

 

[Globalisateur]

And Tempest Audio which so far hasn't materialised anything AFAIK. Plus where's the system for users to create their individual HRTF profile? Plus 'Raytracing' for audio, shadows, GI, etc.

Every audio (3D or not) is handled by Tempest that is rendering that 3D sound to stereo, 5:1, 7:1. Soon Tempest will also process any ambisonic audio to dolby Atmos 7:1:4 (without lag seen in others platforms). Tempest can also be used by the developers notably to process audio stuff but not only.

Mark Cerny, Dolby Atmos info to Digital Foundry

We haven’t heard from the man himself but Mark wrote a letter to the DF team explaining how the Dolby Atmos update works. Eurogamer Article https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-mark-cerny-talks-dolby-atmos-support-for-playstation-5 Please watch: DF Direct Weekly #124 for further...

www.resetera.com

 

[Remij]

Ratchet, Demon Souls, Astro, Upcoming Spider-Man 2. Healthy number considering the extended cross gen period.



It can run fine depending on the PC hardware, as one would hope/expect for a 2 year old game. Still the highest end pc hardware can not match the most i/o dependent section of the game in speed, as Alex demonstrated. Perhaps it's academic, but this is a tech forum, so noteworthy nonetheless.



I love how you tried to sneak this one in there but we both know you have no proof for this claim.



And this is a baseless and slanderous feeling that you have. Matt is/was a multiplatform developer with no dog in the fight. He was just going off of his experience working with the two consoles. Some people just refuse to take in knowledgeable objective opinions as such if it doesn't align with their views.

None of those games couldn't be done on Xbox. Oh no! The Demon's Souls level took 2 more seconds to load from the archstone than it did on PS5!

Ratchet can, and would run just fine on Xbox. Why are you acting like as if it being 2 years old has any bearing on this? It's the best example you can produce of PS5's I/O being something special... and remember, on PC, a 3.5GB/s drive performs the exact same as a 7GB/s drive. If they really wanted to, I think Ratchet could load even faster on PC than it does on PS5. Xbox's 2.5GB/s drive would be just fine.

You love how I tried to sneak that in there? Oh, how convenient that you get to say "No it couldn't".... but I don't get to say "yeah, it could"....

Slander? lol.. It's slander to say you think a developer doesn't know what he's talking about?? Or that you feel they overhyped themselves on the potential of one device vs another? LOL Sure pal

The PS5's I/O has not bore fruit outside of 1 or two titles, which could EASILY work on Xbox or PC.

 

[Remij]

And Tempest Audio which so far hasn't materialised anything AFAIK. Plus where's the system for users to create their individual HRTF profile? Plus 'Raytracing' for audio, shadows, GI, etc.

And what about the PS5's patching process? Seems like the same trash it was on PS4.. just a bit faster.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

None of those games couldn't be done on Xbox. Oh no! The Demon's Souls level took 2 more seconds to load from the archstone than it did on PS5!

What are you going on about? You're being hysterical. Try to stay focused.

Ratchet can, and would run just fine on Xbox. Why are you acting like as if it being 2 years old has any bearing on this? It's the best example you can produce of PS5's I/O being something special... and remember, on PC, a 3.5GB/s drive performs the exact same as a 7GB/s drive. If they really wanted to, I think Ratchet could load even faster on PC than it does on PS5. Xbox's 2.5GB/s drive would be just fine.

Yeah, it all comes down to whether the developers want it enough. Sure buddy.

You love how I tried to sneak that in there? Oh, how convenient that you get to say "No it couldn't".... but I don't get to say "yeah, it could"....

Get a grip dude. You're all over the place.

Slander? lol.. It's slander to say you think a developer doesn't know what he's talking about?? Or that they overhyped themselves on the potential of one device vs another? LOL Sure pal

Yes because you made comments about a developer getting "high off of his own kool-aid". You only made this comment because his viewpoint doesn't align with yours. You offer no evidence to support your claim that his conclusions were biased towards one platform over another. He is a developer who has actually worked on both systems. You're just a guy typing his baseless thoughts on an internet forum. Who's analysis should hold more merit in a tech forum?

The PS5's I/O has not bore fruit outside of 1 or two titles, which could EASILY work on Xbox or PC.

Whatever you say random guy on the internet.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

And Tempest Audio which so far hasn't materialised anything AFAIK. Plus where's the system for users to create their individual HRTF profile? Plus 'Raytracing' for audio, shadows, GI, etc.

It absolutely has.

1. Returnal - Best 3D Audio implementation to date. It also uses RT HW Audio
2. Resident Evil Village
3. Astro Playroom
4. Horizon Forbidden West
5. Gran Turismo 7

These are the highlights for me but the list goes on. PS5 3D Audio has been had the best tech implementation and realization of all new PS5 features.

 

[Remij]

What are you going on about? You're being hysterical. Try to stay focused.



Yeah, it all comes down to whether the developers want it enough. Sure buddy.



Get a grip dude. You're all over the place.



Yes because you made comments about a developer getting "high off of his own kool-aid". You only made this comment because his viewpoint doesn't align with yours. You offer no evidence to support your claim that his conclusions were biased towards one platform over another. He is a developer who has actually worked on both systems. You're just a guy typing his baseless thoughts on an internet forum. Who's analysis should hold more merit in a tech forum?



Whatever you say random guy on the internet.

I'm going on about every single one of those games working and being just fine on Xbox. Keep up.

It does. Clearly.. because the hardware is capable of more.

So you're not saying it can't then? Ok, glad we cleared that up.

Yeah, it's possible he overhyped himself... and I'm saying that because no games are really supporting the narrative that PS5's I/O is so godly and couldn't be done anywhere else, especially 3rd party games.. I also have no evidence that supports his claims either
Yea, I'm just a guy... and you're getting awful upset that my opinion differs from yours.

Ratchet runs on the Steam Deck and ROG Ally for crying out loud .... and are you seriously trying to say that Demon's Souls couldn't work on Xbox?

 

[I'mDudditz!]

I'm going on about every single one of those games working and being just fine on Xbox. Keep up.

Based on your imaginations, which at this point is admittedly very difficult to keep up with.

Yeah, it's possible he overhyped himself... and I'm saying that because no games are really supporting the narrative that PS5's I/O is so godly and couldn't be done anywhere else. I also have no evidence that supports his claims either

He is a developer who works on both platforms. You are not. Therefore, no, you wouldn't be privy to such information.

Yea, I'm just a guy... and you're getting awful upset that my opinion differs from yours.

That's what you don't get. I'm not sharing my opinion, I'm going off of the findings of someone who has direct knowledge. Your opinion, as it relates to this matter, has no value because you have no direct knowledge as support. Just your rudimentary (flawed) idea of how YOU think certain attributes should play out.