Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [2018]

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Yeah, but what I've never seen a good explanation of is how zen can hit 4GHz on what I understand is the fundamentally same low-power process which won't let vega scale past 1450 roughly without power starting to explode out of control... *shrug*
For the same reason Intel's iGPUs will explode out of control past 1.4GHz, or Raven Ridge's Vega past 1.5GHz.
GPUs probably use much denser ALUs than CPUs.
AFAIK only nvidia is making GPUs that hit over 1.6GHz without hitting efficiency walls.

Maybe total amount of RAM used went up during the year? iPhone X for example has 4GB IIRC, previous gen topped out at 2. Some other smartphones have up to 8 gigs these days it seems.
Memory density increased with process updates. Smartphones aren't using more memory chips, the great majority of them use a single memory chip layered on top or the bottom of the SoC. That's the case with the iphone X (3GB bottom) and Galaxy S9 (4GB top).

Some chinese models do brag about having 6 or 8GB RAM purely for marketing bullet points, but they're probably using a bunch of slow LPDDR3 memory together with a Mediatek Pxx SoC that won't take more than single-channel 32bit.
I don't think those are responsible for such an increase in demand that would justify the egregious 47% price-per-GB increase that we saw in 2017.
 
Yeah, but what I've never seen a good explanation of is how zen can hit 4GHz on what I understand is the fundamentally same low-power process which won't let vega scale past 1450 roughly without power starting to explode out of control... *shrug*
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My guess that this is a purely micro architectural issue with Vega and not necessarily a process node one. I suspect Navi will those issues, but otherwise won’t be that much different from Vega, making it a very good option for nextgen consoles.
 
Yeah, but what I've never seen a good explanation of is how zen can hit 4GHz on what I understand is the fundamentally same low-power process which won't let vega scale past 1450 roughly without power starting to explode out of control... *shrug*

IIRC AMD have recently sent some Zen engineers over to the GPU side. So I think it's largely architectural.
 
I'm expecting next gen will have at least instantaneously playable demos via PS Now. And hopefully streaming the game immediately while it downloads or install.
They already have PlayGo, they could just offer free trials of games via that. I don't expect every dev/publisher will give a thumb up for that feature though.
 
Is there a good reason other than possibly price that a PS5 should release 2020 instead of 2019?
If it's going to have full backwards compatibility I don't see why it shouldn't launch at the end of 2019. That way PS4 games should run at native 4k and locked 60fps on it. So it's almost like a Pro + and then by late 2020 they can drop the price and have some big exclusive next gen games come out.

This only works if the hardware will be more or less the same between a late 2019 console and a late 2020 console, I don't see there being much difference other than they will be able to have a slightly faster clock speed if they wait till 2020.

Any ideas on this theory?
 
Is there a good reason other than possibly price that a PS5 should release 2020 instead of 2019?
2019 is still pretty soon after Pro's launch. What's the big hurry here? PS4 consoles are selling quite well, they haven't even come down in price all that far either.
 
2019 is still pretty soon after Pro's launch. What's the big hurry here? PS4 consoles are selling quite well, they haven't even come down in price all that far either.
To gain two years worth of head start for next gen than MS. MS is not releasing a next gen console two years after the X so it'll most likely be 2021 or beyond. Two years of market share is just too huge to compete, it would be almost instant kill. But who knows, maybe MS would have a different model by now, straight up iterative gen perhaps?
 
2019 is still pretty soon after Pro's launch. What's the big hurry here? PS4 consoles are selling quite well, they haven't even come down in price all that far either.

I keep reading the same reasoning but it seems to be forgotten just how much backlash and disbelief there was when rumours started with PS4.5 just 9 months before it launched.

It was 3 years between PS4 and Pro and would be 3 years again if PS5 launched in November 2019. I really can't fathom why so many have a false view of how things went? I know some would prefer a PS5 later for various reasons
e.g. I just bought a Pro!? but PS5 coming out in late 2019 wouldn't mean Sony's committing a crime against you!

As for pricing it seems mainly due to simple economics. Less node shrinks that are much more expensive to implement, higher component costs vs return on a much smaller remaining (highly casual) base given you already sold ~80 million.

Far simpler and cheaper to stick with nice slim you have at a price as high as possible and then reduce it when the numbers/market demand it.

Edit. I should add to my first sentence that Pro went on to be completely accepted after the initial uproar.
 
^Honestly, I don't like to think of the PS4 Pro as a PS4.5. I hope PS5 is way more poweful than just a 0.5 more. Just saying.
 
A two year headstart with Sony's brand recognition would surely be worth it. I never bought a PS Pro because I saw it for what it was, a console made for people who wanted to play there PS4 games at 4k on there new TV's. I don't have a 4k tv yet so didn't buy a Pro but I've had a PS4 since launch so 6 years is long enough for me and I imagine a big chunk of there customer base.

I imagine a big percentage of early Pro adopters would also be some of the first people to get a PS5, it's who they are
 
A two year headstart with Sony's brand recognition would surely be worth it. I never bought a PS Pro because I saw it for what it was, a console made for people who wanted to play there PS4 games at 4k on there new TV's. I don't have a 4k tv yet so didn't buy a Pro but I've had a PS4 since launch so 6 years is long enough for me and I imagine a big chunk of there customer base.

PS4Pro was also made with VR in mind, IMO. Look at the codenames: Neo (PS4Pro), Morpheus (PSVR) :D
 
A two year headstart with Sony's brand recognition would surely be worth it. I never bought a PS Pro because I saw it for what it was, a console made for people who wanted to play there PS4 games at 4k on there new TV's. I don't have a 4k tv yet so didn't buy a Pro but I've had a PS4 since launch so 6 years is long enough for me and I imagine a big chunk of there customer base.

I imagine a big percentage of early Pro adopters would also be some of the first people to get a PS5, it's who they are

I have a Pro and I agree. I bought it because I had gift cards but I think 6 years is ok for a generation.
 
PS4Pro was also made with VR in mind, IMO. Look at the codenames: Neo (PS4Pro), Morpheus (PSVR) :D
Lots of ROPs too. Lots of fillrate to ensure high framerates at 2* 960*1080 with multisampling, using lower quality graphics (not as shader intensive).
 
Is there a good reason other than possibly price that a PS5 should release 2020 instead of 2019?
If it's going to have full backwards compatibility I don't see why it shouldn't launch at the end of 2019. That way PS4 games should run at native 4k and locked 60fps on it. So it's almost like a Pro + and then by late 2020 they can drop the price and have some big exclusive next gen games come out.

This only works if the hardware will be more or less the same between a late 2019 console and a late 2020 console, I don't see there being much difference other than they will be able to have a slightly faster clock speed if they wait till 2020.

Any ideas on this theory?
hmm a couple thoughts.
To begin with let's just look at Playstation in isolation and forget about MS as a competitor for a second here.

So the 2019 would be when 7nm is sort of ready at its earliest. And the process itself is still going to be relatively new, the expectation here is that its going to be more expensive to produce in 2019 than in 2020 or 2021.
That being said.

The reason why 4Pro could launch at 16nm FF, is because yield was not as big of an issue. You're not selling to the mainstream masses, you're not aiming for 1 million units sold per month globally. So they're safe in that regard. You look over the fence to MS, and even on the same process 16nm FF, they had to wait an additional year to have stable enough process to generate a yield (clock speed) that would enable them to sell Scorpio at a reasonable price point. These are both low selling SKUs.

If they move ahead with selling in 2019, expect a lot of shortages which is not necessarily what Sony wants either. More shortages means longer ramp up period to getting critical mass. Longer time it takes to get to critical mass, the developers aren't aiming to develop for that platform (not enough population). Majority of the focus will still be on last gen.

If you launch 7nm, you'll need to launch smaller dies to get yield, which means that they're significantly weaker than the larger dies. Or you can go with slower clocks, but that just means less performance as well, not sure if they want to lock a whole generation behind mediocrity just to get the jump on a competitor who is largely 1/2 their footprint.

So point (A), you need to be able to sell a lot of units, and you need a mature process with great yields to support it

Memory. Ditto, If you're going to hit GDDR6 or something else, you need to wait until it's mainstream viable and yields are good enough for massive production.

So point (B), memory and lots of it, especially if you need a lot for 4K, and it doesn't get cheaper the newer it is. New memory contracts probably aren't very cheap right now either.

Lastly, thinking about design and intent. All three players in the industry make choices on where they think gaming is headed, and they will optimize their hardware to support it. From a high level point of view, it looks like this
* VR
* 4K/8K (traditional path of certainty)
* Ray Tracing
* Mobile (nintendo)

Those are probably the main buckets. I don't think anyone actually knows what Sony is planning for next gen. Whether they'll go more VR focused, more resolution focused etc. Will there be a PSVR 2? There's a lot of questions here, people didn't like the VR hub, so if VR is their focus, that needs to go directly into the SoC or the board for instance. Additional costs there as well.

So point (C) Sony needs to pick one thing to optimize that will define the consoles purpose for the next upcoming generation.

Then of course it's how MS would respond to Sony if they launched in 2019.
MS will probably start with enabling exclusives on X1X.

When we talk about the 16nm to 7nm, you're gonna gain in transistors and clock speed. Perhaps total output is going to be 8TF ~ 10 TF for instance @ $399. Which is great. But there's nothing stopping X1X from checker boarding/reconstruction. Ideally, checker boarding/reconstruction techniques would be matured by 4Pro, such that it's a technique that everyone would be used to using 2-3 years from now. And multiplatform developers won't checkerboard PS5 just to stretch out the performance difference between X1X and PS5. They don't do that today, and they likely won't do it next gen.

They have customizations on the command processor side that haven't been leveraged yet that can drastically reduce the load caused by draw calls on the CPU. There just _might_ be enough stuff within X1X to possibly allow them to skip a generation and hold on while they continue to progress on their own goals.

So 2019 doesn't seem ideal to me, but that's just imo of course. I guess we'll know in 12 months.
 
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I suppose it all comes down to how mature the process will be by the end of 2019. I don't think shortages and the price in 2019 will effect them so much as long as it has full backwards compatibility. The key being that there be no shortages and the price to be reasonable by the end of 2020 when some big exclusive PS5 games strart rolling out.

If they going to lose 4 TFlops because of launching in 2019 that would be a big reason not to.

It could be a 100 dollars more exspensive in 2019 as long as they get the price down by 2020. The walled garden of PSN and Live have become the most important aspect of these consoles for Sony and Microsoft in my opinion so that selling hardware at a loss is more viable than ever before, if you going to guarantee people stick in your network.
 
For the same reason Intel's iGPUs will explode out of control past 1.4GHz, or Raven Ridge's Vega past 1.5GHz.
GPUs probably use much denser ALUs than CPUs.
AFAIK only nvidia is making GPUs that hit over 1.6GHz without hitting efficiency walls.


Memory density increased with process updates. Smartphones aren't using more memory chips, the great majority of them use a single memory chip layered on top or the bottom of the SoC. That's the case with the iphone X (3GB bottom) and Galaxy S9 (4GB top).

Some chinese models do brag about having 6 or 8GB RAM purely for marketing bullet points, but they're probably using a bunch of slow LPDDR3 memory together with a Mediatek Pxx SoC that won't take more than single-channel 32bit.
I don't think those are responsible for such an increase in demand that would justify the egregious 47% price-per-GB increase that we saw in 2017.

There are also "premium" phones that have 6gb of ram.

OnePlus 3 launched on spring/summer 2016:
Qualcomm Snapdragon 820 MSM8996
GPU (Adreno 530) @ 624MHz
LDDR4 @ 1866MHZ (dual channel)

As you can see, they didnt use junk parts like many cheap chinese phones.

Very succesful and sells/sold very well on many areas, in my country this and new models have been on top 1-3 of sold devices for 2 years now.

So, maybe apple/samsung/others bring their +6gb models out soon too, after all it is 2 years since OP3 launched.
 
I keep reading the same reasoning but it seems to be forgotten just how much backlash and disbelief there was when rumours started with PS4.5 just 9 months before it launched.
The situation is kinda different now though, isn't it?

Back then, Sony had just one PS4 model; now they have two already. With a "PS5" (let's call it, and we'll also assume it's fully backwards compatible too because anything else would be nonsense); then they'd have 3 consoles in their stable; that's kinda crowded, don't you think?! So which one are they going to discontinue, Pro, after so short a run on the market? It'd look bad and would annoy those who bought it.

They're NOT going to discontinue PS4 vanilla; that's their entry level model, the most affordable one with the highest sales potential. So they'd be inbetween a rock and a hard place I'd say. 3 consoles would cannibalize sales from each other, but there's no good strat for eliminating one console.

If you instead wait until at least fall of 2020; by then vanilla PS4 will start looking rather long in the tooth, putting it out to pasture might not be such a bad idea then, and PS4 Pro could thusly be moved down a notch in the pecking order. There's now room at the top for a new heavyweight champion; "PS5".
 
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