News & Rumours: Playstation 4/ Orbis *spin*

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EDIT: Standing the PS4 upside down may have air-flow implications me think.
There are no intakes on the top side of PS4, so no, that would not be an issue. You would scratch the casing though since there aren't any protective rubber feet on that side, the glossy HDD cover section would be especially vulnerable from that regard...


I can't remember if I have ever run PS1 upside down, but definitely tilted the drive facing down.
Wasn't there a big brouhaha back in the day about tons of original PSes needing to be turned upside down to be able to read optical discs after a couple years of use? :p
 
Wasn't there a big brouhaha back in the day about tons of original PSes needing to be turned upside down to be able to read optical discs after a couple years of use? :p
Yep. SIdeways or upside down but if I recall it was mostly sideways
 
There are no intakes on the top side of PS4, so no, that would not be an issue. You would scratch the casing though since there aren't any protective rubber feet on that side, the glossy HDD cover section would be especially vulnerable from that regard...

I took a closer look. There are vents running along the top and bottom edges of the case (if you stand it vertically).
They are tucked sideways along a groove (clever !), so the console doesn't block the vents.
 
the first time i unboxed the PS4, the groove ventilation makes me remember surface pro. Too bad the ventilation in PS4 not "the same" for all sides (one side have it a bit bulging due to the fan)
 
the first time i unboxed the PS4, the groove ventilation makes me remember surface pro. Too bad the ventilation in PS4 not "the same" for all sides (one side have it a bit bulging due to the fan)
This still perplexes me. Why not just make it 2/8th inch longer.
 
Why not just make it 2/8th inch longer.
You know, that right there is why imperial measurements just need to be destroyed. :p

Anyhow, the bulge is tiny and unnoticeable. What does it matter? Making the console wider would have made the console wider for basically no reason. It would have been heavier, requiring more materials to build, bigger, needing more shelf space and a larger box to ship in, and so on. The bulge clearly is a very reasonable engineering compromise.
 
Board engineers: here's our latest design. This is the smallest we can get
Cooling endingeers: here's the fan needed to cool it down
Casing engineers: oh crap, now the case is too small.
Project Leader: Everyone! Working time extended, crunch time, no more rest time. fix this up before this weeks end or PS4 wont have time for launch.

temp intern: why not simply make a small bulge right here?

Btw that inch thing... thank internet.. we have google.
6.35mm
 
You mean a PS4 Slimmer? That thing is tiny already, I think it will take a little longer to get a smaller version, seeing how loud the current version gets already sometimes.
 
Reading that release it looks like the motivation here is for better performance (8Gbps datarate) so these are going to be selling at a premium, not a discount. This basically rules them out for PS4 however if Samsung are manufacturing in volume then others may migrate to these leaving a larger (and therefore cheaper) market for the chips that Sony use.
 
Won't there be a huge amount of chips that don't qualify at 8Gbps and thus are sold at a discount?

Probably, the PS4 "only" needs 5.5gbps but they'd obviously have to secure large numbers. Or they have them in a few consoles for a while before transitioning into every unit perhaps? Might not make sense however, I don't know.
 
Reading that release it looks like the motivation here is for better performance (8Gbps datarate) so these are going to be selling at a premium, not a discount. This basically rules them out for PS4 however if Samsung are manufacturing in volume then others may migrate to these leaving a larger (and therefore cheaper) market for the chips that Sony use.

The PR speak about game console. And only one console use GDDR5...


“We expect that our 8Gb GDDR5 will provide original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) with the best graphics memory solution available for game consoles as well as general use notebook PCs,” said Joo Sun Choi, Executive Vice president of Memory Sales and Marketing at Samsung Electronics.
 
Some perhaps but a "huge amount"?

And that assumes the only failing is performance and not capacity. In any case yields tend to improve over time meaning the reject bin gets smaller and smaller. Given sales of consoles tend to grow over time, these two vectors are going to collide, assuming there are even enough failures to impact prices to begin with.
 
At the very least they may trickle it out first to dev kits. :)

You mean a PS4 Slimmer? That thing is tiny already, I think it will take a little longer to get a smaller version, seeing how loud the current version gets already sometimes.

Yeah, it'll take more than just double density chips to warrant a significant design change methinks; they may want to utilize 16 RAM chips for dev kits anyway. It'll save some power, but it's probably cheaper to stick with the existing motherboard design until there's a significant APU shrink.
 
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The PR speak about game console. And only one console use GDDR5...

That part of the release is talking about GDDR5 in general - it also mentions mobile devices and PCs. The PS4 does not use GDDR5 this fast and it would be a complete waste of money to use them in it.

A more premium device though, like a Steam Machine, sure.
 
The world’s largest memory manufacturer will keep expanding the production volumes of its 20nm DRAM products at a variety of densities including 4Gb, 6Gb, 8Gb and higher densities to solidify its leading position in high-end IT market segments as well as more value-driven markets.

Not only 8 GB ;)
 
Well, I guess the race to 299 is going well :)

I wonder if they'll make a new devkit with more than 8GB ram, then "unlock" of some memory that was previously reserved.

Does the new 20nm-class means twice the capacity for the same die area? Regardless, even the new 4Gb at 20nm would drop the cost.

If history repeats itself, the lowest speed bin would now be one notch higher than the current bottom (currently 5GHz for 4Gb @ 1.5v, while the PS4 needs 5.5). This time Sony could probably take ANY parts that high-end GPUs don't want.

This is looking good for a lower PS4 BOM, The whole 8GB could cost under $50, and they'd save some more on integration, since they won't need the bottom heat spreader anymore.
 
I know this is a bit off-topic and probably should not be on the console forum, but can someone quickly remind me why RAM chips have historically had much larger transistor counts than CPUs and GPUs, while their clocks are lower? Quickly so we don't derail this too much? Please?

@BRiT Please don't spin off this in a "Basic Questions about how computers work that have already been discussed to death before and you should know by now *spawn*" thread. I don't need the humiliation. Thank you. I love you.
 
I know this is a bit off-topic and probably should not be on the console forum, but can someone quickly remind me why RAM chips have historically had much larger transistor counts than CPUs and GPUs, while their clocks are lower? Quickly so we don't derail this too much? Please?

I'm trying to dredge up some recollection and citations, but the general trend stems from the different way DRAM performs its function, and a very heavy emphasis on density and cost.
DRAM relies on using densely packed arrays composed of many rows of bit cells composed of a capacitor and a controlling transistor. Hundreds of these cells are attached to a common bit line, and a read is accomplished by one of the hundreds of transistors on a single bit line being turned on (many bit lines are read in parallel), and the capacitor either discharging its stored charge or taking some charge from the bit line, depending on the value of the cell. This small perturbation is picked up by a sense amplifier, which will work to raise or lower the bit line's voltage to a readable logical 0 or 1.

The bit line's is physical and electrical bulk needs time to be overcome, but until it is, the array has little use.

Some trends:
  • The more cells on the wire, the less space is lost to overhead. However, the more cells on a wire, the longer it needs to be physically, which decreases the amount a capacitor can affect its voltage, and increases the time to sense it.
  • A node shrink will ideally halve the length of a line, since the cells it connects will require less space. However, the physical size of the capacitor goes down, and it is similarly weakened. In the interest of maintaining density, the devices are tweaked to try and keep performance the same--where array speeds are measured in hundreds of MHz.
  • Dense control transistors are small transistors, but small transistors leak more and small capacitors do not hold a lot of charge these days. The voltage levels differ from logic and the transistors combat leakage at the price of lower performance.
  • DRAM is sold for its capacity, and not for much money relative to the mm2 being sold. The circuits and process are highly specialized to have high regularity, extremely high yield, and are less likely to use steps that increase manufacturing difficulty.
  • Currently, external DRAM compensates by driving the interface very fast, and reading large chunks from the plodding arrays in parallel.

Logic tries to form a link between its output and a non-stored voltage source that pulls the output up or down. Hundreds of transistors do not share a wire, connections are more complicated, capacitance is generally undesired, and transistors can vary in size. Electron mobility is favored, since the transistor needs to drive its output. This means their processes and structures are not close to being as dense as a dedicated DRAM, and they tend to leak worse the denser they get. The kind of capacitors DRAM would like do not fit well in a logic process, so some kind of specialized process or additional steps are needed to even try. CPUs and GPUs tend to sell for more money, and their processes, transistor structure, and metal layers can afford to be more complex. Their acceptable yields are unacceptable for DRAM.
 
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