News & Rumours: Playstation 4/ Orbis *spin*

[rockaman]

Well they shouldn't, and that's somewhat unlike them. They've traditionally been willing to push advances rather than wait for others to lead the way. Sony's software library is full of unconventional games and...oddities. They were the first to bring out camera gaming. This is a U-turn in philosophy. We've even heard that they had Move in some form or other long before they released it. I don't understand Sony's investment in the RnD group only to constantly ignore it. Perhaps the loss of Phil Harrison is greater than people appreciate?

Who said motion controls are advancing the barriers of gaming?

It's alright to wait. We've had EyeToy, and then Wiimote, and then Kinect. Where are the barrier breaking games?

Results are erratic at best. That's enough to be said. I think Sony sees that this is going to be an unreliable source of revenue.

Unless one expects PSEye or Kinect 2 to emulate the success of Wii again, I think it's alright not to fill the eggs in one basket.

This has nothing to do with U-turning or 180ing or 360ing. It is just being overly critical of a business decision, and being way, way too optimistic about the rate of adoption AND the capacity to revolutionize and instill new passionate faith in consumers in the near future of motion gaming and camera based gaming.

Move and PSEye are not expected to make as much money as traditional games and indie games on PS4. That is plain as daylight. I would be surprised if one can argue against these expectations. Sony isn't going to turn the gaming world upside down with one PSEye game, and they know it. They may have good success, but that doesn't change the direction for the entire catalogue that is Sony's gaming portfolio, which is mostly made of traditional games.

As much as people can argue the benefit of the Wii had with the case of motion gaming it offered, others can point just as easily to the WiiU and say that there's not always a big rosy garden filled with cash waiting for everyone who wants to stand out.

And another argument to say... this is not at all a 180 from Sony. Sony never invested heavily into the idea of motion gaming even when they introduced EyeToy. The product was a relative hit especially in EU, but besides this... they did not put that much effort or marketing into motion gaming. For the convenience of whatever argument is being made, people will argue Sony did too much with EyeToy, or not enough, and usually neither is true. They did "just enough" more likely for what EyeToy was, and it was not the Wii.

 

[patsu]

Yea I would think VR and motion control would go like peanut butter and jelly.

Especially when envisioning some massive VR survival MMO where you can look down grab something from your belt and actually have to use it

Imagine repeating a series of simple hand gestures, and possibly pacing in the room for 30 minutes !

 

[Arwin]

Poor analogy. We've already pretty much reached the limit on the number of useable buttons/triggers on a typical controller with good form factor. And the DS4 looks to have gone the final step with a touchpad, which imo is the most logical addition to controls out of them all this go around. Everyone and their babies are used to using touch controls now. In contrast, most camera controls end up simply just mirroring an action that can be done from a button anyways.

Actually, it's not just the touchpad. I think that's just a 'quick win', that is incredibly cheap to add, but can still provide a natural interface for people used to touch on their phones. What should definitely not be discounted is that the DS4 basically contains all of Move as well - and not just the part that depends on the camera, but the full gyros. These are precise enough to control a pointer and detect movement in any direction, while not getting in the way of using the dual analog sticks. The only part that needs the camera is to be able to track the controller precisely in a 1:1 scenario, and the only downside vs the Move controller is that full motion is more limited because the LED is obscured sooner (which is also why the Move doesn't go away - real motion gaming like sports and sculpturing and such still benefit greatly from Move), but this is not a concern for gaming that relies on dual analog sticks as well as the rest anyway.

These gyros should not too easily be equated to sixaxis functionality in the DS3 - these were very imprecise in comparison. It's basically going from the Wii-Mote to Wii-Motion+.

Also, for VR, I would pick Move technology over Kinect, because tracking a Move controller is to all intents and purposes completely lag-free (at 4ms identical to DS3, and well within the 30ms response time that were measured to be necessary for people not to get too motion sick in a VR environment).

@rockman: yes, I do think Motion controls advance gaming. I personally found them to be one of the innovation highlights of the previous generation, and spent about 50% of my gaming time on them. I'm glad they're not likely to go away, but I'm also sad that the current focus is on second screen tech, which I don't think is actually that great an addition to gaming. It's only really good for asynchronous multi-player, and that has quite limited applications. Imho, for single player experiences, touch just works best if the primary screen is touch based, and everything is happening there - there's just that one screen.

 

[Rangers]

I'm not sold the touchpad is anything more than a useless gimmick.

But I guess you'd have to use it to know for sure.

Knowing Sony it wouldn't even surprise me if in two or three years it magically disappears (like sixaxis)

 

[Cjail]

The loss comes from being behind and then trying to play catch up. Compare the relative success of Kinect to Move in the current generation. Kinect was vastly more successful in selling software titles which made it a lot more profitable. Now imagine if Sony had continued their work with camera based controls and gaming. That would have been them instead of Microsoft raking in most of that profit.

But Sony wasn't profitable this gen so it is possible that they didn't have the money to push PS Move as aggressively as MS pushed Kinect.
We really must not forget that Sony didn't have the same freedom as MS.

Now move to the upcoming generation. PS4 offers nothing new other than increased performance in everything that existed before. While the competition is moving ahead with something that may or may not revolutionize or evolutionize (yes I know that isn't a proper word) gaming. If it takes off that leaves Sony in a very awkward spot. Even if they include the camera accessory in every console mid generation, that still leaves many developers to wonder why they should bother with motion controls on the PS3 as a significant portion of their install base may not have the camera accessory.
At best Sony could then hope for ports from the competition, but the competition will always be the lead platform for those games at that time due to every single console coming with the necessary hardware to support the game. At worst, publishers just won't bother.

True...and this is why I said that I don't agree with Sony decision to make PS Camera optional.

Basically Sony is playing it safe (like Nintendo did when Sony approached them with the CD-ROM based console design) while Microsoft is taking a gamble (like Sony did with the PS1).

Yeah but Sony might not have another choice.
First Sony should recover, and they just started to do it, then take new gambles.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

It doesn't need it, but it'd be a nice to have By next next gen we'll be living in massive photoreal worlds. It'd only be natural to interact with it like you would in r/l.

Look -> Touch -> ... Taste? Heh.

The best way to eliminate body control need and strange effects with VR games is use third person view instead of first person view. Do you imagine a VR version of "TLOU" , like you were really behind the npc controlling his actions.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Who said motion controls are advancing the barriers of gaming?

They haven't, but they should have. There have been numerous conversations on this board when myself and others have talked abut what could and should be done with motion controls that would prove their value. But instead we have half-hearted attempts and people quick to dismiss them. I'm not necessarily saying the camera should be a pack in - the camera with no software is even worse than no camera and no software. But I do object strongly to Sony's abandoning of the concept as a gimmicky niche, deciding its value based solely on previous sales figures. That's akin to Apple looking at the past failures in the tablet space and concluding they'd make a tablet but not invest anything in the OS or UI because tablet are a proven failure. The inability for Sony to see and develop the potential is what's letting people down. And to anyone who cannot see the potential, there seems to be no loss, making it difficult to argue the value.

It's interesting that in the Kinect threads I'm saying there's incredible potential but I doubt it'll be realised and nothing been shown. There's no software showing the potential being tapped. Sony's RnD and software with their own camera system would have been a great accelerator of the whole New Wave interface world, but they've retreated. It's like there's a whole other battlefront currently untouched, the companies competing on natural game involvement and enhanced gameplay and natural interfaces, and they all looked at it and said to themselves, "you know what, we're already spending on making games and media devices and services. How's about we just leave that battelfield untouched?" So there's a whole territory uncontested as they compete with the same-old-same-old.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

They haven't, but they should have. There have been numerous conversations on this board when myself and others have talked abut what could and should be done with motion controls that would prove their value. But instead we have half-hearted attempts and people quick to dismiss them. I'm not necessarily saying the camera should be a pack in - the camera with no software is even worse than no camera and no software. But I do object strongly to Sony's abandoning of the concept as a gimmicky niche, deciding its value based solely on previous sales figures. That's akin to Apple looking at the past failures in the tablet space and concluding they'd make a tablet but not invest anything in the OS or UI because tablet are a proven failure. The inability for Sony to see and develop the potential is what's letting people down. And to anyone who cannot see the potential, there seems to be no loss, making it difficult to argue the value.

It's interesting that in the Kinect threads I'm saying there's incredible potential but I doubt it'll be realised and nothing been shown. There's no software showing the potential being tapped. Sony's RnD and software with their own camera system would have been a great accelerator of the whole New Wave interface world, but they've retreated. It's like there's a whole other battlefront currently untouched, the companies competing on natural game involvement and enhanced gameplay and natural interfaces, and they all looked at it and said to themselves, "you know what, we're already spending on making games and media devices and services. How's about we just leave that battelfield untouched?" So there's a whole territory uncontested as they compete with the same-old-same-old.

Anyway until there is a solution for freely walking in a VR environment VR will not be completely hacked. And almost sure this solution will need an entire VR dedicated room. That´s the greates handicap VR faces.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm not talking VR though. For that you need a head-tracked headset and possibly an omnidirectional treadmill. Camera gaming can be different though. We haven't had an Eyetoy Play HD yet, for goodness sakes! We can do background removal and avatar tracking. Then there's a decent Move-based RPG, like the skeleton shooting demo. I know plenty of people really liked the look of the skeleton shooting demo, but the closest Sony got was a weak sauce magic game, instead of an Oblivion-a-like incorporating the combat of Move Sports. There's body tracking while gaming to add extra input, adapting the camera to natural, instinctive movements (which'll work doubly well with 3D TVs). There's facial recognition to read players mood and adapt. We can add far more role-playing elements by reading the player, requiring a degree of acting on the player's part. There are all sorts of new game types and existing game augmentations that could be created with decent support.

 

[patsu]

I'm not sold the touchpad is anything more than a useless gimmick.

But I guess you'd have to use it to know for sure.

Knowing Sony it wouldn't even surprise me if in two or three years it magically disappears (like sixaxis)

The touch pad may be interesting for non-games. e.g., web browser.

Vita's touch control hasn't really open up new gameplay too. "Old" gamers seem to cherish the dual sticks more.

 

[patsu]

...

IMHO, Move controls + 3D visor seem ok, but it would be better if they can lose PSEye. That way the user doesn't have to be in front of the TV/console all the time.

The best control seems to be the one in Avatar (the movie). You just game in bed. ;-)

 

[Bagel seed]

The best way to eliminate body control need and strange effects with VR games is use third person view instead of first person view. Do you imagine a VR version of "TLOU" , like you were really behind the npc controlling his actions.

3rd person would be ok. But first person would have me shitting my pants Besides, I expect those weird VR issues could be solved with enough power in due time. It wouldn't be like Trespasser.

The touch pad may be interesting for non-games. e.g., web browser.

Vita's touch control hasn't really open up new gameplay too. "Old" gamers seem to cherish the dual sticks more.

Just think of all the unique control you have with games and UI on your phone. Now they can applied to AAA console games as well. It's a pretty obvious benefit. I imagine they'll try a bit harder on PS4 titles than Vita.

 

[patsu]

But Sony wasn't profitable this gen so it is possible that they didn't have the money to push PS Move as aggressively as MS pushed Kinect.
We really must not forget that Sony didn't have the same freedom as MS.

True...and this is why I said that I don't agree with Sony decision to make PS Camera optional.

Yeah but Sony might not have another choice.
First Sony should recover, and they just started to do it, then take new gambles.

It's opportunity cost. They have decided to gamble big time in online technologies for the next 10 years first. Their social sharing features, Gaikai, 2Gbps ISP (Nuro Light) in Japan are some examples.

Given their initial focus on core gamers, the existing crop of motion controlled games are not so interesting. The $399 price tag seem more important to this audience in the mean time.

 

[Strange]

The touch pad may be interesting for non-games. e.g., web browser.

Vita's touch control hasn't really open up new gameplay too. "Old" gamers seem to cherish the dual sticks more.

Dragon's Crown surprisingly became the definitive version for me (PS3/VITA).

The touch controls were way better for certain precision things that posed a real problem if you try to do it on the sticks.
Granted, there weren't FPS drops on PS3 but the functionality allowed for much faster paced combat on Vita without you having to ignore the touch control systems.

 

[patsu]

What do you do with the touch input in Dragon's Crown ?

 

[betan]

I'm not sold the touchpad is anything more than a useless gimmick.

But I guess you'd have to use it to know for sure.

Knowing Sony it wouldn't even surprise me if in two or three years it magically disappears (like sixaxis)

Gimmick or not, Sixaxis didn't disappear, after they got rumble back it was silently rebranded as a feature on DS3 (purely syntactic of course). Gyros/accelerometers are certainly there, and will be in DS4 as well.

Also, you should be surprised if touchpad is removed along the way, I would certainly be.

 

[patsu]

Perhaps the games need to evolve beyond shooting and simple melee to take advantage of touch input. When they combine action games with tactical and strategic elements (e.g., planning on a map, configuring complex items), the touch pad may come in handy.

If they simply try to do QTE melee with simple gestures, it tends to take me out of the game.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, Sixaxis did not disappear. Flower was released long after Rumble made its reappearance.

 

[MrFox]

The DS3 was the first console controller to feature a gyro, and nobody really used it.

The touch pad has much better general use cases, I'm not sure what they can do "in-game" but it's a good pointing device for menus and interfaces, and it can be used in absolute positioning for a coarse "touch screen" interface. Swiping, scrolling in lists, scrolling and pinch zooming the map in an RTS, all the conditioned movements that people do with their phones, it can be very intuitive.

 

[Bagel seed]

Perhaps the games need to evolve beyond shooting and simple melee to take advantage of touch input. When they combine action games with tactical and strategic elements (e.g., planning on a map, configuring complex items), the touch pad may come in handy.

Exactly A combination of genres, or an implementation of 'tools' into the game itself.