New Tim Sweeny interview

[DuckThor Evil]

I can't wait until Laa-Yosh, Qroach, jvd, and others see that the PS3 is capable of handle graphics like MotorStorm, F1, and Killzone.

Heh I can't wait to see your world fall apart when the truth is revealed .

It's a bit weird to argue with a guy who thinks PS3 games are going to look like prerendered movies, or that PS3 can almost render SW Episode 3 in realtime, there is something surreal about it...

 

[Qroach]

Aye, it's like he's getting paid to look , well, not so smart.

 

[jvd]

I can't wait until Laa-Yosh, Qroach, jvd, and others see that the PS3 is capable of handle graphics like MotorStorm, F1, and Killzone.

Heh I can't wait to see your world fall apart when the truth is revealed .

It's a bit weird to argue with a guy who thinks PS3 games are going to look like prerendered movies, or that PS3 can almost render SW Episode 3 in realtime, there is something surreal about it...

This is what happened with the ps2 . They will slowly forget about it . That is why i'm saying sony can gte away with this because it will be at least a year before anyone sees the real games and how much diffrent they are and the original videos will be much harder to track down .

Of course this time its diffrent as there are more websites out there and more places for the originals to hide out untill its time to compare them to the released product

 

[marconelly!]

jvd,
Demos shown at the unveiling of PS2 didn't look all that impressive compared to actual games we eventually got to see on PS2.

 

[Qroach]

That's not 100% true. Some of thsoe demos were veyr impressive. Most of the demos Sony showed were never matched in actual games. There's a good reason for that too. Considering how sony demonstrated the PS2 using a couple gigs of ram connected directly to the EE (or was it the GS, I gorget) that contained all pre transformed data to be rendered to the screen.

That's what I was told by people that worked for namco at the time.

 

[notAFanB]

Most of the demos Sony showed were never matched in actual games.

This is obvious to just about anyone by now. But were *any* of thopse demos ever reproduced in realtime since then? or did they remain the perpetual BS that they were?

 

[marconelly!]

That's not 100% true. Some of thsoe demos were veyr impressive.

None of them really was... when you look at it now, and especially if you look at it upclose and not on some thumbnail sized pictures that everyone seems to have embedded in mind. GT3/4 ended up looking much better than GT2000, demonstrated at that unveiling, the FF dance scene looks very simple compared to realtime cutscenes in SH3 or MGS3 (I really don't need to post pics of those, if you'd played either game you'd have no doubt about it), the old man face demo and RR girl had tons of polygons, but still the old guy from SH3 ends up looking better due to better texturing, self shadowing and healthy poolygon budget (not to mention how much more simplistic in scope those demo scenes were compared to cutscenes in the actual games I mentioned). All the demos also ran in the interlaced mode. Just look at those demos again, they look nothing special.

This is obvious to just about anyone by now. But were *any* of thopse demos ever reproduced in realtime since then? or did they remain the perpetual BS that they were?

Those demos were realtime, ran in interlaced mode, and looked quite poor even in the animation department if you compare them to recent efforts. As you can see on that GT200 picture, the textures weren't even filtered, dance demo had stiff animation and tons of clipping, etc.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

That's not 100% true. Some of thsoe demos were veyr impressive. Most of the demos Sony showed were never matched in actual games. There's a good reason for that too. Considering how sony demonstrated the PS2 using a couple gigs of ram connected directly to the EE (or was it the GS, I gorget) that contained all pre transformed data to be rendered to the screen.

That's what I was told by people that worked for namco at the time.

Are you kidding me? This ridiculous claim is fine from the f@nboys, but come on. You should know better. Those vids are still on IGN's site. Try this one:

http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_2.mpg

If that doesn't work, change the last number to 1-6. Something in that range should work. The PS2 demos were aliasing, clipping messes that only looked incredible b/c the DC was much weaker hw. I wish there were still hq versions of these vids around. It's laughable everytime someone drags this tired argument out. Most PS2 demos were destroyed by first-gen games. TTT, Bouncer, RR5's realtime intro and GT3. The head demo might not have been topped, but only b/c not many games featured a bodyless head floating in space. Even then, you can compare it to what we got in cutscenes in a number of other games.

As for the PS3 demos. After seeing CoD2, and GoW, and GR3. What makes anyone think KZ2 is still impossible? Not even J. Allard is making this claim. Even he said he thinks it's possible. He said 5 years' time, but it's not like he's gonna be running Sony's PR for them. Again, just b/c something looks incredible doesn't mean it's not credible. But this dead horse is begging to be buried. PEACE.

 

[marconelly!]

no point bring up ps2 demos that met ps2 games to justify ps3 demos will do the same.

I'm not saying that, and I haven't brough up the comparision either (jvd did).

 

[mckmas8808]

Thank you marconelly! I have been trying to tell these people but they won't listen. I don't fault them though, a lot of people feel the same way they do. I think the media has got them confused.
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[marconelly!]

its funny marc, you said xenos will not handle the choppy robotic moving ruby demo as a game fps

Huh? I never said that. In fact, I explicitely said I would expect to see visuals like that demo in something like a fighting game (two characters on the screens, much like there's in the demo)

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23373&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I wouldn't hope for that kind of visuals/character detail on FPS game, but for a two characters fighting game, sure why not.

Yeah, I'm not hoping (then again I'm not saying it won't happen) for such super-detailed characters in a first person shooter that's supposed to have dozens of them on the screen. Characters in that demo look more detailed than those in the KZ2 trailer.

 

[mckmas8808]

If the real PS3 games can surpass the demos like what happened with the PS2 and their demos, then we will be in for one hell of a ride.
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[pc999]

My 2 cents.

1) I never had see a PS2 game with gfx(in game) that PS2 demos allude to.

2) I think that we may very well see KZ2 like soon or latter (here is one reason http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=535376&highlight=#535376) but if you pick in GoW, I really think that this game is even more impressive, but in qualiltity should be near just with a diferent art (e.g.in shaders) and prepared to get more thinghs at once (and less detailed).Or think in HS, that runs in RT at 720p (or at least almost), but instead of 3k put 300 soldiers and and 10X the detail (or even 5X and put the others 5 in the machines/cenario/etc). Do you really think that would be very diferent :shock .

The thinghs that I find more impressive are animation and physics, in that is a bit harder to belive, but these CPU are made to do these so, by now I am a beliver...

BTW way I expect both PS3 and XB360 to get this kind of gfx in second or third gen of games.

 

[mckmas8808]

BTW way I expect both PS3 and XB360 to get this kind of gfx in second or third gen of games.

Again another guy that agrees that Killzone is possible. People who honest with themselves can see how it will be true. The difference between Killzone and GoW are not THAT BIG.
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[MechanizedDeath]

Not even J. Allard wants to put foot in mouth regarding those PS3 demos. Here's an excerpt from the GameIndustry.biz interview:

Did you see the PS3 tech demos?

Yes.

What did you think?

I... I think tech demos are always fun to show. I liked crashing cars at GDC last year, and I think we did it at E3 again. I mean tech demos are fun but you've got to move on. People don't buy tech demos.

How representative did you think they will be of final gameplay?

I was looking forward to the games, because the tech demos - you remember the old man from last generation - I didn't buy a game on PlayStation 2 that had that kind of facial geometry. So I've got to move on to the games footage, and I think that's really up to...

Was that not also a tech demo then?

That was not tech demo. That was rendered.

But didn't you use the same trick on Gotham 3 the other day?

[Bounds up and down in chair, waves arms] We didn't, we didn't... First; I mean there's no trick because it was a combination of in-game footage and rendered footage, just like videogames are. So, I mean we had a combination of both those elements throughout. All the stuff that we did show that was game footage was all running on Alpha kits though, so I think it's coming along really really well.

You show the best that you can show. We tried to show things that were representative of what you're going to be able to buy. That was our part. In some cases it was lower than what we'd like people to think this system is capable of, but it's real, and we wanted to show people stuff that was real and say 'hey, launch is around the corner and you're going to buy games that look like this, you're not going to be disappointed'. We didn't want to set an expectation, and I think there was an expectation, just talking as a gamer, of Namco Girl. Remember Namco Girl on PS2, I remember saying 'I can't wait to get that game'. That game doesn't exist. That game is going to exist; the fidelity of the graphics of Namco Girl for PS2 will first ship on Xbox 360 called Dead Or Alive 4. Dead Or Alive 4 will have that kind of fidelity, but that's years after Namco Girl.

So in terms of the game footage it was probably misleading to consumers who might expect [PS3 games] to look as good as that?

Well, talking of a Spring launch, talking to developers, they don't have dev kits yet. I don't know how you get them. In terms of theoretical performance, maybe five years out, maybe it's possible.

Again, he's not exactly gonna to Sony's PR work for them, but not even he's gonna say it's impossible. I look at GoW, and it's a beautiful game. And it's first-gen on arguably weaker hardware. I know it's still unknown just what the hell RSX will look like, but I think it's safe to say the PS3 will be more powerful. It's more a question of how much more. But I'd be remiss to say the 360 couldn't pull off what we saw in that demo, much less the PS3. But I'm not suprised b/c when those DOA4 pics first surfaced, a number of people chimed in with, "I told you not to expect much from this gen" talk. BS. I think it's fair to expect the gap to low-level CG to be bridged by a considerable amount this gen. I think it's fair to expect a decent value for our $300. Visuals like GoW, HS and KZ are what I expect from this gen. Maybe my hopes are set too high, or maybe they aren't high enough. I don't think KZ is all we should expect from the next-gen hw. I'd hope for better in the coming years. :?

I dloaded those CoD2 vids from that other thread. The geometry and lighting looks weaker than KZ, but there are a lot of particle effects, and a lot of guys on screen. I-8 was the same way, just a different art style. You had all the "scripted" action too in CoD2. Like guys barking instructions and lifting wounded from the battlefield and other cool interactions. I really feel like the backlash at KZ stems more from damage control than actual merit. I mean, it looks great...duh. It's the next-generation. But besides some of the lighting, is there anything we shouldn't expect going on there? Sweeny already said we should expect gobs of physics from Cell, so gobs of particles shouldn't be out of the question. Also, what's the point is creating all that art just for a demo? Wouldn't it be better for them to create models for the demo that could be easily reused in-game?

OK, I'm sorry for wailing on this dead horse a bit more, but I can't help myself. I feel like it's 1999 all over again, and it's the same back and forth. I'd expect certain things from this gen, so I'm sticking to it. PEACE.

 

[Fafalada]

1) I never had see a PS2 game with gfx(in game) that PS2 demos allude to.

Aside for there being no PS2 game featuring gameplay of a void with a rotating head inside it, what other example is there?

 

[ManuVlad3.0]

I was looking forward to the games, because the tech demos - you remember the old man from last generation - I didn't buy a game on PlayStation 2 that had that kind of facial geometry.

Silent Hill 3 characters are better than old man tech demo.

Actually, the PS2´s AAA games are better than all "last generation tech demos".

http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_1.mpg

http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_4.mpg

http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_5.mpg

http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_6.mpg

In the other hand, I didn't buy a game on XBOX that had this kind of graphics:

 

[Goragoth]

The difference between Killzone and GoW are not THAT BIG.

Huh? There is a huge difference. If you really can't see it then maybe yeah, there will be games that look like the KZ2 CGI to you. Perhaps PS3 games in motion will look like the KZ2 CGI to a layman but I bet you that anybody with half a clue will still be able to tell the obvious difference between CGI and realtime graphics. Hey, I can't tell the difference between a reasonably good quality MP3 and an audio CD either and there are plenty of people who will tell you that there's a world of difference so I guess it all comes down to what you are trained to pick up on.

The GoW and Heavenly Sword screenshots both show the familiar trappings of realtime graphics, the KZ2 ones do not. That's the huge difference. As for it being to spec, hel maybe it is to a theoretical spec. Maybe the polycounts are restricted to the max throughput that the PS3 has but just like the PS2 theoretical poly throughput is, what? 10x of what it can actually do, same is likely true for the PS3 as well.

If you still disagree and say that KZ2 graphics are achievable in realtime on the PS3 I first want to hear your credentials, if you even have half a friggin clue. Laa-Yosh for example has said that he works with CGI so I can respect his opinion on the matter (which happens to be the same as mine). Nobody claiming that KZ2 will look that good has given any shred of evidence that they are more than a Sony fanboy repeating PR BS. Personally I'm currently studying graphics and multimedia, I'm doing honours this year writing 3D visualization software for visualizing networks, I've also done some Direct3D programming in my spare time as well as doing modelling and a bit of animation in 3DSMax and Maya. So I would say I'm reasonably familiar with both realtime and prerendered 3D graphics seeing as I've been studying this stuff for the last five years. Now tell me why your opinion should count for anything and don't say "because Sony said so", give me a real, informed opinion or STFU.

 

[marconelly!]

eh marc lost..

kz ms do not look less super detailed than rudy, has more onscreen and ultra smooth cgi animotion..i dont get you.

in this thread you are hoping for ms against laa yosh, during e3 you hoping for kz against laa yosh.

i think i said still stands.

Serious question: Ary drunk/high sometimes when you write these posts?

Yes, I'm hoping to see that kind of visuals in games that we'll eventually play. If not pixel for pixel, then reasonably close to it. We have already seen some pretty crazy impressive stuff that is confirmed realtime, and as I said, many people would argue that some of it already looks more impressive than some of allegedly prerendered footage (like that F1 game).

 

[PC-Engine]

So why is it that two other guys on LIVE TV says something and you totally ignore it? Better yet jvd can you answer this question for me? Do you think its possible for Killzone, Motorstorm, or F1 (for the PS3) to look like what we seen in the conference?

LIVE TV = REAL TV!!!

Same with Motorstorm, and to an even greater degree. The screens show so many realtime lookning artifacts that I have a ahrd time believing that was CGI to being with. More like a cut scene rendered on a 6800 or something like that.

We've been through this enough times, right? Keep your beliefs if you wish to, but please stop spreading it like a prophet...

I can't wait until Laa-Yosh, Qroach, jvd, and others see that the PS3 is capable of handle graphics like MotorStorm, F1, and Killzone.

Heh I can't wait to see your world fall apart when the truth is revealed .

It's a bit weird to argue with a guy who thinks PS3 games are going to look like prerendered movies, or that PS3 can almost render SW Episode 3 in realtime, there is something surreal about it...

Maybe he's smoking something hallucinogenic?