my sc2 controversial impressions

[darkblu]

let me start with saying that i'm a devoted fan of soul calibur - that was the one title that really brought me into console gaming in the first place.

yesterday i had the chance for getting my first impression from sc2 - spent about a couple of hours with a friend's xbox version. i may not surprise anyone if i say i find the new version models and stages gorgeous. .. yet one thing struck me and left me with controversial impressions, so i wanted to share it with you and ask you of your observations/opinions : the character animations (essentially everything from limbs movements to clothing & weapons movements) seem to be animated at a lower rate than the framerate of the game. IOW, if the game runs @ 60fps, the animations seem to run at *noticeably* lower rate - fast moves turn out choppy .. mitsurugi's various sword swings come to mind right now - they looked particularly choppy - as if only keyframes form the animation were displayed, without the interpolations inbetween. please note i'm not saying the displayed framerate of the game was low - the camera transitions were fluid and swift - so no question the game output was in the 60's (or 50's at least) of fps, but those character animations.. i played that xbox version with a friend of mine who is no lesser of a fan of the game than myself (we may easily have 70+ hrs of gameplay against each other) and he shared my concerns. we both think the original soul calibur on the dc had more fluid animations (i.e. running at the same rate as the game framerate). now, the only logical explanation (i.e. speculation) i can come up with, assuming my friend's and my observations are correct, is that this may be a result of the game being a "broad" multiplatformer - the engine backends made in such a way as to provide maximally-similar characteristics for the frontends, and that this somehow brought animations rates to somewhat of a lowest common denominator..

anyhow, i'm really curious to hear about your observations on the matter.

 

[Grall]

What "lowest common denominator"?

Any of the current nextgen consoles are capable of thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass.

I don't understand why some people seem to think it was the second coming of gaming consoles, it was good for its time, but it's f'n old hat now.


If animations do indeed run at a lower speed than the framerate, it sure as hell isn't to cater to some lowest common denominator. All current consoles easily push 2x the polys of DC in gameplay conditions, along with more advanced physics and all kinds of other stuff.

*G*

 

[chaphack]

I feel sorry for you darkblu. Now you can experience the "lynching" im receiving.

 

[V3]

It could be due to the new animation system that they used for SC2. The animation for each swing of your weapon suppose to adjust to character's movement or something along that line.

 

[Lazy8s]

Grall:

Any of the current nextgen consoles are capable of thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass.

 

[jvd]

What "lowest common denominator"?

Any of the current nextgen consoles are capable of thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass.

I don't understand why some people seem to think it was the second coming of gaming consoles, it was good for its time, but it's f'n old hat now.


If animations do indeed run at a lower speed than the framerate, it sure as hell isn't to cater to some lowest common denominator. All current consoles easily push 2x the polys of DC in gameplay conditions, along with more advanced physics and all kinds of other stuff.

*G*

The dreamcast was actually the 3rd coming .

 

[Phil]

shenmue and sonic, what a suprise... the standard defensive reaction we can expect these days, as it seems...

Anyway, lets not turn this into yet another tired and had-before DC vs [insert console / PS2] debate... we've all had this before and technically, Grall's statement is absolutely correct, if you may agree or not.

back to topic...

Haven't had a chance to play SC2 yet, but it would be interesting to know if the framerate issue is existant in the other console versions aswell. If not, then maybe (although IMO unlikely) the jump to 720p proved to be a bit too taxing afterall...?

 

[darkblu]

What "lowest common denominator"?

Any of the current nextgen consoles are capable of thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass.

hmm, you seem to imply some connection between the above two statements.. anyway, i think you read too much into my post - where exactly did i mention anything about the dc's performance characteristics, moreover in comparison to anything of the current generation?

I don't understand why some people seem to think it was the second coming of gaming consoles, it was good for its time, but it's f'n old hat now.

no second comming whatsoever - we're talking of game framerate VS animations rate here. the dc (just as well as the saturn, megadrive, etc, etc going back to my first pong videogame) could output games @60fps and animations (be they sprite blitting) at the same rate. i brough the dc into the discussion just to make the "feel" point - it could have been any other platform the original soul blade/soul calibur ran on. or, alternatively, for the same purpose of "getting the feel" i could have compared the SC2 to the DOA3 on the xbox, as DOA3 does not exhibit that lower animations rate either. does that sound better to you now?

If animations do indeed run at a lower speed than the framerate, it sure as hell isn't to cater to some lowest common denominator. All current consoles easily push 2x the polys of DC in gameplay conditions, along with more advanced physics and all kinds of other stuff.

ok, back to the "lowest common denominator" - that was just a blind guess on my part, as i don't know what polycount the game tries to push and how that compares to the capabilities of each of the targetted consoles. or how the "standartization" of the backends throughout the platforms affected the performance on each of them. anyway, i'm not persistent about the "common denominator" thing, don't get hooked on it.

It could be due to the new animation system that they used for SC2. The animation for each swing of your weapon suppose to adjust to character's movement or something along that line.

i remember reading about that long ago, at an early stage of the game development. could it be that technique somehow hampered the proper use of animation interpolations, because of animation keyframes "dynamic adjustments"?

 

[Fafalada]

Would it still be "controversial" if it was mentioned that the lowest denominator of the three when it comes to character animation is GC?

And sprites animating at 60fps? That'll be the day...

 

[jvd]

Hmm I don't really see it to much in the gamecube version but i can see what looks like almost a droped frame of animation in the chars but nothing else once in awhile . I dunno what it is but while playing it looks like something just isn't right ever once in awhile .

 

[darkblu]

Haven't had a chance to play SC2 yet, but it would be interesting to know if the framerate issue is existant in the other console versions aswell. If not, then maybe (although IMO unlikely) the jump to 720p proved to be a bit too taxing afterall...?

unlikely as the game fps is high and stabe - it's very apparent from the fluid camera transitions - for 2 hours play i didn't notice a single jerk in the fps. alas characters animations fluidity is a completely different matter. btw the game was run in 480p.

 

[Lazy8s]

Phil:

shenmue and sonic, what a suprise... the standard defensive reaction we can expect these days, as it seems...

What's to defend? Producing that level of visuals speaks for itself.

we've all had this before and technically, Grall's statement is absolutely correct,

I wasn't aware there was anything of technical consideration in:
"Any of the current nextgen consoles are capable of thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass."

"thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass" is not what I consider a technical analysis.

darkblu:

hmm, you seem to imply some connection between the above two statements.. anyway, i think you read too much into my post - where exactly did i mention anything about the dc's performance characteristics, moreover in comparison to anything of the current generation?

You too found Grall's out-of-left-field interpretation of your original post to be pretty bizarre? Should've seen him in a previous topic a while back... it's like he goes around trying to prove points no one's even discussing.

I understand what you're saying about apparent differences in certain animation rates versus camera movement framerate, but I can't say I noticed the same thing in my time with the arcade version (I didn't study it too closely, though). If things like flaps of clothing don't seem to ruffle smoothly, it would seem to be a fault of the algorithm they made to control that. Like suggested, it could also be the result of some new approaches with animation they tried, as I would expect the level of polish on the product to be high enough to at least prevent it from having glaringly less transitions in certain animations if it was possible under their new approaches.

 

[darkblu]

I understand what you're saying about apparent differences in certain animation rates versus camera movement framerate, but I can't say I noticed the same thing in my time with the arcade version (I didn't study it too closely, though). If things like flaps of clothing don't seem to ruffle smoothly, it would seem to be a fault of the algorithm they made to control that.

yes, i am perfectly aware of this, and also of the fact they used low-res meshes on some rather inappropriate occasions (like the ponytail on siegfried's helmet), which could break animation fluidity additionally. but choppy sword swings?! my overall feeling of the character's animations transitions in sc2 is similar to the feeling i get from animations in quake1/2 where regardless of the fps the game rendered at, character animations would invariably be at something along 12Hz (IIRC)

Like suggested, it could also be the result of some new approaches with animation they tried, as I would expect the level of polish on the product to be high enough to at least prevent it from having glaringly less transitions in certain animations if it was possible under their new approaches.

well, yes, i would expect similarly, but the reduced fluidity of the animations was the first thing that struck me at the very first round of the very first match i played.

 

[London Geezer]

what makes me curious is how this thing looks...

i mean, the framerate is stable at 60fps but the animations are at half the frame rate :?

oh i get it it's like the reflections in the cars in Project Gotham.... i see...

is it like that in every version? im sure i read somewhere that the animations (at least in the arcade-PS2 version) were some of the smoothest ever (or whatever...) , this is a bit different from being *the smoothest ever*.... maybe the whole new physics engine is really taxing *the lowest common denominator* ...

or it might be that the transition between consoles was a little more painful than some people would like us to think.... :?

 

[Phil]

Lazy8s:

I wasn't aware there was anything of technical consideration in:
"Any of the current nextgen consoles are capable of thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass."

"thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass" is not what I consider a technical analysis.

Read between the lines, it's pretty obvious what he ment. The fact that darkblu mentioned something along the lines of "lowest common denominator" (obviously in a technical sense) should be indication enough what Grall was pointing out.

What's to defend? Producing that level of visuals speaks for itself.

You obviously do feel obligated to defend something, seing that you post screens of DC games in a SC2-thread... go figure...

Honestly, do we need to turn every-single thread into some DC-defending fest? Me thinks not, but that's just me. BTW; since this is off-topic, don't expect a reply from me after this.

 

[Tagrineth]

Would it still be "controversial" if it was mentioned that the lowest denominator of the three when it comes to character animation is GC?

And sprites animating at 60fps? That'll be the day...

Sprites should be able to animate at 60fps on a few consoles. Not that you'd want to, since all you'd see is a blur. Makes more sense for them to MOVE at 60fos

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Well, the defending of DC came right after the bashing. Not too suprising really.

I'm pretty unimpressed by SCII, especially after the fluidity of DoA3 and its multi-tiered levels. It's a step backwards IMO. They basically repackaged a 1999 game with slightly enhanced visuals and added a few goofy characters. The music isn't as good either.

DoA3 and VF4 are the only really good fighters to come out in the last 3 years.

 

[Simon F]

What "lowest common denominator"?

Any of the current nextgen consoles are capable of thoroughly kicking the silly DCs ass.

Thank you for your excellent contribution which clearly fails to address any of darkblus questions.

 

[chaphack]

WHOOPASS!

Coolheaded, sensible posters rule the day. 8)

 

[Reznor007]

Would it still be "controversial" if it was mentioned that the lowest denominator of the three when it comes to character animation is GC?

And sprites animating at 60fps? That'll be the day...

Sprites should be able to animate at 60fps on a few consoles. Not that you'd want to, since all you'd see is a blur. Makes more sense for them to MOVE at 60fos

Have sprites at 60FPS would be neat. You wouldn't increase the speed of the animation, just add more frames in between instead of repeating the same frame.