Most promising new console FPS control scheme

[Brimstone]

This sounds like the powerglove...without the glove.

I don't really understand this need for new control mechanisms. Play GRAW, and it's pretty obvious that we are just beginning to reach the plateau in controllability and intuitiveness. The last thing I'm concerned about in games right now is lack of a good control scheme.

Wii has some potential as a party device, a new type of gaming, but it will never replace conventional game types. This 360 gesture crap will never take off, and the PS3 gyro might turn out introducing some new standards to the various genres but that's a huge if, it's really up to the developers to make it work, and I'm not expecting much.

I agree for the most part.


Microsoft could come out with a "Wiimote" killer by just designing things slightly differently.


Instead of a rectangle shaped remote control pointing device, MS could have two nunchuck style controllers. Make the IR beam pointing nunchuck have one of the buttons be a good analog trigger and instead of a thumbstick, have a trackball.

 

[rabidrabbit]

For xbox360 successor they very likely will copy some kind of motion sensor tech.
For xbox360, they can't change the existing design too much, maybe add gyro like PS3, but changing the controller too radically would make the xbox360 backwards incompatible also with older xbox360 games, not just xbox games.

 

[Brimstone]

For xbox360 successor they very likely will copy some kind of motion sensor tech.
For xbox360, they can't change the existing design too much, maybe add gyro like PS3, but changing the controller too radically would make the xbox360 backwards incompatible also with older xbox360 games, not just xbox games.

Microsoft can easily come out with a controller with a radical design, it's just new games have to support it because old games won't. The default standard would be the control pad for all games, but developers would have the option of supporting the new control device.

If Halo 3 supported some sort of new motion sensor controller, that controller would sell in the millions along with millions of copies of Halo 3.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Would the future xbox360's come bundled with the new radical controller then, or the same old controller? Or both?
Would the new rad controller be a special controller just for one or two games (like that badass mech controller for xbox)?
Wouldn't that create too much diversity to the already divided xbox360 market (HDD vs. no HDD)

 

[Brimstone]

Would the future xbox360's come bundled with the new radical controller then, or the same old controller? Or both?
Would the new rad controller be a special controller just for one or two games (like that badass mech controller for xbox)?
Wouldn't that create too much diversity to the already divided xbox360 market (HDD vs. no HDD)

If it were to happen, I'm quite sure a lot of Microsofts first party games would support it. Fable 2 is similar to Nintendo's Zelda, so I could see Lionhead programming Fable 2 with a motion sensing controller for that, but of course the standard pad would still work as well.
A game like Killer Instict 3 would probably only use the control pad. It would be up to developers to determine if the motion sensing controller made sense for their games.

As far as what would be bundled with future Xbox 360's, I would guess both controllers would be packed in, a gamepad and motion sensing controller, at least in the premium box.


The hype around Halo 3 will be off the scale. They have the Halo movie coming out to help broaden the audience. If they reveal a special new controller that taps into the enthusiasim of Nintendo's "Wiimote", even more gamers will be intrested in Halo 3 and Xbox 360.

 

[Carl B]

This sounds like the powerglove...without the glove.

I don't really understand this need for new control mechanisms. Play GRAW, and it's pretty obvious that we are just beginning to reach the plateau in controllability and intuitiveness. The last thing I'm concerned about in games right now is lack of a good control scheme.

Wii has some potential as a party device, a new type of gaming, but it will never replace conventional game types. This 360 gesture crap will never take off, and the PS3 gyro might turn out introducing some new standards to the various genres but that's a huge if, it's really up to the developers to make it work, and I'm not expecting much.

I agree. I'm not down for these new interface methods for one reason alone actually; they're tiring over an extended gaming session. If I play games for a logn stretch at a time, the last thing I want is to be standing that entire time with an arm extended moving it around quickly aimin at things on the screen. Sure, it'll lead to a healthier new generation, but I mean I have to be pragmatic here. And the motion sensing in Warhawk? Ok cool right, but not as accurate as just an anolog stick would have been, know what I mean?

It's like voice-to-text computing, neat idea with a high novelty appeal, but at the end of the day if I have to go through ~9 hours of work, I much rather be using my hands.

I think Wii-mote has a lot of potential, and the PS3 controller to a lesser extent, but I don't see motion sensing supplanting traditional interfaces in traditional games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree. I'm not down for these new interface methods for one reason alone actually; they're tiring over an extended gaming session.

That does seem the primary concern. I'd have thought DS3 (or DM controller) has small enough movements in most situation to not be an issue, being the sorts of motions you'd do in the course of a game. Anything more extreme than slight wrist motions does tire the muscles surprisingly quickly. The first batch of Wii games are likely excessive, but they really need to tone-down the motions for long-term playing. OR are people going to play baseball sat on the couch with the controller resting across their hands and slight movements to swing the bat? If motions games require as much movement as their real-life counter parts, it'll require a change of clothes into white shorts before play, and a shower afterwards!

 

[pc999]

This is very good news IMO I like any kind of possible inovation, and I think it could be give some very nice controls specially for party games or eg for issue orders in BIA3 and such.

Althought this isnt a standard so I expect very few use .

 

[scooby_dooby]

For xbox360 successor they very likely will copy some kind of motion sensor tech.
For xbox360, they can't change the existing design too much, maybe add gyro like PS3, but changing the controller too radically would make the xbox360 backwards incompatible also with older xbox360 games, not just xbox games.

Nah, I think these gimmicks will prove to be just that, except in the case of Wii which will carve out a niche as a new type of game experience (i.e. extremely simple party type games)

It's always hard to predict the future, but in I don't see these new control schemes being implemented to much success in conventional games, and that by next gen they will go by the wayside.

I think Sony & NIntendo may be gearing up for a rather large battle over the japanese market though, and that may heavily influence their decisions for future consoles. I don't think MS will go this route.

Just a quick question, would you guys rather have offset thumbsticks, or gyro functionality? To me, offset thumbsticks is far more practical, and useful than this gyro tech, and IMO that should've been fixed on DS3 way before they began to look at extra features like the gyro.

 

[redrzewski]

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/10965/Xbox-Live-Vision-Camera-to-Use-GestureTek-APIs/

Couple cool new videos from team xbox.

Don't know if this is real or prototype/concept.

 

[Acert93]

And if you bother to read my post, you would know what the actual problem with Wiimote is for FPS. The IR emitter/sensor bar basically reduces the experience to point and click advanture instead of immediate control of the camera. That guy you've quoted doesn't even get to the fact that there is no way to consistantly center the cursor like dual analog set ups. Also, not having immediate control of the look camera means fast circle strafing is all but impossible.

Not that I have tried the Wii-mote, but I would note that circlestraffing and other techniques, born out of KB/MS style controls (and mimicks) is a biproduct more of the limitations of controllers. In many ways circle straifing and like techniques are kind of silly, but were a necessity because the first FPS really only had the 2 control inputs and jump/crouch. No lean left/right, no prone, no option to take cover.

Since you are a skilled traditional-FPS being asked to do things in a different way is going to annoy you. Yet that is what games are starting to do. 3rd person views like Gears and GRAW, camara lag, limited rotation speed (to eliminate circle straifing), etc.

In theory setting up the Wii-mote for circle straifing would be very simple. But the question is: Do they want players running around in circles? It is like circle-flying in many games with planes. The physics/controls are so limited that people end up flying in large loops chasing eachother.

Everything I have read is that the Wii-mote is pretty sensative. The decision to "cage" the cursor may be a mistake. It took FPS on consoles years to find the best solution for control inputs, and even then we are still evolving in regards to "damage/health" systems.

My guess the caged cross hair is more a design goal due to their demographic aim (i.e. casual gamers). Saying it sucks for FPS seems a little quick to conclude. The remote is sensative (which is important) and can be adjusted in software, and developers can choose how they impliment it. I see no reason why a traditional FPS control layout with the Wii-mote with Numchucks would not be possible. Of course the issues of a dead area, locking onto a target (or once you are looking where you want to lock the controller), etc are all issues. They may also need to consider different ideas like "roll" for turning and use the screen space for aiming or have the numchuck do left/right forward/back and move straifing to the 2 triggers on the numchuck, as roll, or as the edge of the screen with the Wii-mote. Even using a button to level off in the Z plane is an option, or to go back to "center". Right now *software* is trying to find the best use of the *hardware* for a specific use, so these are not hardware limitations but design issues. And then there is always the gun addon...

I think I would like a more traditional method and just deal with the sensativity/manually tone it down, especially if they added a small camera "lock" so you don't need to move back to center to stay exactly where you wanted. But there are a LOT of options for FPS, and just like it took a while for the Gamepads to settle down in this area, so will the Wii-mote.

Just thinking back to how poor many FPS's controls were on gamepads and how to adjust to the limitations they just limited player movement in the world... eek! Not that gamepads are very good now, they actually quite suck for FPS. Having observed dozens and dozens of people looking at the floor/feet more time than aiming has reinforced this to me. There are always us 6 fingered people who do fine, but handing a gamepad to a newb and expecting anything but frustration is asking too much. At least with Nintendo everyone is a newb.

 

[blakjedi]

Light guns are gimmicks even though they are like guns and the motions are realistic. Dance pads and guitar props are gimmicks even though they immitate the real thing... Wii mote sounds interesting as a party enhancer or even in the arcade but for anything else... it is probably not the best tool.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Just a quick question, would you guys rather have offset thumbsticks, or gyro functionality? To me, offset thumbsticks is far more practical, and useful than this gyro tech, and IMO that should've been fixed on DS3 way before they began to look at extra features like the gyro.

I'd rather the gyro.

Don't just see the practicality of the offset thubsticks over symmetrical.

If the offset thumbstic is so much better why not put both joysticks at the same "offset" position??

Symmetrical to me is just easier and more natural, of course there's always place of improvement on the position of both sticks, but I prefer them symmetrical and at the same level.

 

[blakjedi]

I'd rather the gyro.

Don't just see the practicality of the offset thubsticks over symmetrical.

If the offset thumbstic is so much better why not put both joysticks at the same "offset" position??

Symmetrical to me is just easier and more natural, of course there's always place of improvement on the position of both sticks, but I prefer them symmetrical and at the same level.

Symmetrical as it exists in the DS series is strange because you are expected to hold both thumbs perpendicular to the rest of your hands.... while trying to grasp the front of the pad....

 

[rabidrabbit]

Then why is it better to hold just the other thumb perpendicular?
It was about the symmetry, not ergonomics.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I'd rather the gyro.

Don't just see the practicality of the offset thubsticks over symmetrical.

If the offset thumbstic is so much better why not put both joysticks at the same "offset" position??

Symmetrical to me is just easier and more natural, of course there's always place of improvement on the position of both sticks, but I prefer them symmetrical and at the same level.

It's about prioritizing your inputs. On the right side, the face buttons are the most critical control inputs when you take all genres into account, and as such should sit naturally where your thumb will be, the prime location so to speak.

On the left side, the analogue stick is the primary input and should be in the spot where your thumb naturally rests. It's simply more comfortable on DS2 to use the D-pad and that's backwards IMO.

Off setting both would be great for FPS's, but it would be detrimental to games other than FPS's to place the face buttons below the stick. Offsetting on the left is a positive for almost every genre/game, since the analogue stick is far superior to the D-pad in almost any situation.

I just don't understand why the d-pad maintains such prime real-esate on the PS controller when it's a fairly archaic 15 year old input mechanism and the analogue stick is far better. I view that as a complete no-brainer.

And before someone accuses me of being a 'offset fanatic' realize it's just a casual obesrvation as to what *my* priorities for a new controller would be. Not saying it's a huge deal.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I undertand and agree with the logic of offset sticks, but personally I don't think the left-stick postion is in any way bad for control or comfort and the symmetry is more aesthetically appealing in DS. I don't see the change would give any tangible benefit to gameplay but would detrct from appearance. I also think bottons in the thumbstick positions would be less useful than sticks. I think reaching that far would be awkward, so to have the buttons effective, even if they're rarely used, there could be an argument to have them in the nearer portion of the controller.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Who the heck cares which is more aesthetically pleasing? Are you kidding me!?

The change does benefit gameplay, and you need only look at reviews of offset controllers to see that. It's simply more comfortable to play a FPS with offset sticks than something like DS2, that can't be denied. In any game where you use the left-thumbstick alot, it's more comfortable to have the sticks offset.

It comes down to the fact tha the natural position for your left-thumb is the upper left portion of the controller, anything outside of that range requires a stretch. Granted the DS controllers are very puny, so it's not too bad, but it's still something that should be fixed. There's simply no need for the D-pad to be prioritized over left-thumbstick.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The change does benefit gameplay, and you need only look at reviews of offset controllers to see that. It's simply more comfortable to play a FPS with offset sticks than something like DS2, that can't be denied.

Yes it can! I deny it . As I said I have no comfort issues with DS2.

It comes down to the fact tha the natural position for your left-thumb is the upper left portion of the controller, anything outside of that range requires a stretch.

Not true. It's no stretch to reach the left or right sticks. I've a DS2 in my hand now (well, not now, I've put it down ot type!) and the point at the base of the thumb where it rotates is postioned on the handle equally distant from the centre of the buttons and the left stick. The only time my thumb stretched is if I try to keep it centred on the top of the stick, so pushing the stick right I have to reach over the top of it. But there's no need to play like this. I push the stick right and pull it left, with no reaching and no discomfort. If I imagine the sitck where the D buttons are, I had the same problem needed to reach forwards if I wanted to go up.

Now I haven't had lots of use of offset sticks so I might notice a benefit, but as I have no complaints with the current design it's really not an issue. Whereas a change of layout would be something everyone would notice. Does it matter? In the grand scheme of things no. But then offset sticks matter about as much. A lot of people value design. Even in car programmes you get people complaining about niggling little design issues of a car that they find ugly. Ultimately form must pander to function, both if you get the best of function with nice form, that's a bonus. DS works for me, functionally and how it looks, so I can't see any reason to change it.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Yes it can! I deny it . As I said I have no comfort issues with DS2.

When discussing button placement on the right side you've said yourself "I think reaching that far would be awkward, so to have the buttons effective, "

So how is it a 'reach' for your right hand, but not for your left? You were right the first time, reaching beyond the default thumb position is reaching. Therefore, you should prioritize your inputs so the most heavily used input resides in that prime location.

By your new logic, placing the right-face buttons on the lower part of the controller would make absolutely no difference, and would be equally as comfortable to use. I think we can all agree that is false.

"Now I haven't had lots of use of offset sticks so I might notice a benefit"

I think that about sums it up right there. I used DS for 6+ years, and have used offset xbox controllers now for~4 years. The offset is alot more comfortable if you're making extensive use of the left-thumbstick, which most games do nowadays.

" DS works for me, functionally and how it looks, so I can't see any reason to change it."
It's about evolving to meet the times. Back when the original DS was designed it was in an era where D-pad was still the main input device, dual sticks were new, and at that time it made perfect sense to have the D-pad in the prime spot. Now, things have changed, d-pad is almost never used in game anymore, analogue sticks are now standard controls, and it simply doesn't make sense to keep the D-pad in a more convenient spot than the thumbstick.