Most promising new console FPS control scheme

[redrzewski]

Like Democoder, I was looking to Wii to give me next gen FPS control. We'll have to see how it pans out.

But right now, I'm more excited about the control scheme from MS.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/e306/e306-clips-xbox-360-gesture-recognition-172978.php

http://www.pcvsconsole.com/news.php?nid=3173

Again, we'll have to see if anything comes of it. But the potential for RTS and FPS is there.

Left hand index finger for movement direction, right hand index for look. Firing can be done many ways (left/right foot up/down). And it opens the door for intuitive tactical squad based options (left hand fist + point in a direction sends the bravo squad off in that direction).

 

[NANOTEC]

If both of your hands are attached to one controller, there's not much that you can do with this. It looks neat as a tech demo but in reality it would be pretty useless as a control method.

 

[Acert93]

Interesting. TrackerIR (or something like that) uses a system where they track a "dot" you put on your head/hat. I think a "traditional" FPS controls on a Gamepad + some minor head tracking for quick/fine control would be cool. I know a lot of people who struggle with the thumb-sticks for fine movements. I am not sure if the camera is sensative/fine grained enough, but it would beat trying to use 2 analog sticks + gyro at the same time as rotating the controller could be a struggle when trying to move the sticks. I know it would be for me with small hands.

Even if it was not fine grained enough, it would be good enough for something as simple as gestures to indicate "Look around the corner".

I still think the Wii-mote can work. It seems to be very sensative/accurate (a good problem in that through the user interface on the software end you can "soften" that). I think the problem will be finding the best use/implimentations. REMEMBER, FPS early on went through a number of attempts on consoles to find a good compromise. RTS have still yet to find that. The Red Steel "cage" idea may work, but it probably needs a bit of refinement + user adjustment. Another idea is go the route of the NDS in Metroid (which I thought was really nice).

Of course something as simple as trackball would solve a lot of problems as well.

 

[redrzewski]

With what I was thinking for FPS controls, would be no controller at all. Just your hands.

There is also a video of xbox360 dashboard completely controlled with hand gestures. Looks a lot like minority report. I saw it a couple months back.

Can't find it now, though.

 

[NANOTEC]

With what I was thinking for FPS controls, would be no controller at all. Just your hands.

There is also a video of xbox360 dashboard completely controlled with hand gestures. Looks a lot like minority report. I saw it a couple months back.

Can't find it now, though.

How would you fire? Controlling a menu is one thing, controlling a FPS is another. As far as FPS are concerned Metroid Prime 3 seems to be the method of choice.

 

[redrzewski]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2343085639169675810&q=Xbox360

Here's the minority report vid.

How to fire? Foot up/down can do it. Also thumb up/down.

 

[Pausanias]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2343085639169675810&q=Xbox360

Here's the minority report vid.

How to fire? Foot up/down can do it. Also thumb up/down.

Is that a fan made concept? (Sorry I don't have sound on so if they were saying anything I couldn't hear)

But if that real, then wow.

 

[Shogmaster]

If both of your hands are attached to one controller, there's not much that you can do with this. It looks neat as a tech demo but in reality it would be pretty useless as a control method.

If this thing is useless as a control method, then what does that make the fucking Wiimote? And before you blah blah blah, don't bother if you didn't get to try out the Wiimote. I stood in line 2 days in a row 3 hours a piece to test out 4 stanking games on the Wii. The Wiimote is only good for simplistic games. It absolutely sucks for FPS.

 

[NANOTEC]

If this thing is useless as a control method, then what does that make the fucking Wiimote? And before you blah blah blah, don't bother if you didn't get to try out the Wiimote. I stood in line 2 days in a row 3 hours a piece to test out 4 stanking games on the Wii. The Wiimote is only good for simplistic games. It absolutely sucks for FPS.

LOL I guess you didn't play MP3.

How to fire? Foot up/down can do it. Also thumb up/down.

Get real...

Is that a fan made concept? (Sorry I don't have sound on so if they were saying anything I couldn't hear)

But if that real, then wow.

It's just a concept aka fake.

 

[kyleb]

Left hand index finger for movement direction, right hand index for look. Firing can be done many ways (left/right foot up/down).

Yeah and you'd wiggle your ears to reload.

 

[scooby_dooby]

This sounds like the powerglove...without the glove.

I don't really understand this need for new control mechanisms. Play GRAW, and it's pretty obvious that we are just beginning to reach the plateau in controllability and intuitiveness. The last thing I'm concerned about in games right now is lack of a good control scheme.

Wii has some potential as a party device, a new type of gaming, but it will never replace conventional game types. This 360 gesture crap will never take off, and the PS3 gyro might turn out introducing some new standards to the various genres but that's a huge if, it's really up to the developers to make it work, and I'm not expecting much.

 

[redrzewski]

I'm not a sports fan, but I think baseball catchers make all sorts of really fast hand signals to signal pitches. Presumably if the technology is powerful enough, (big IF), then all sorts of gestures could be used, and at that rate of speed, clapping, palm forward, etc.

We could get to the point where watching a master play a game is more interesting than watching the game being played.

I'm thinking RTS here, where selecting troops, issuing orders, looks like you're conducting a very complex symphony.

Of course, the 1,000,000$ question is what flipping the middle finger gets mapped to.

 

[rabidrabbit]

That "Minority Report" interface is a cool idea, but I don't think currently it's precise enough for anything else but simple UI's and games where accuracy is not that important.

For "traditional" games, like fps, driving, flying I think the PS3 gyro controller is the best from new consolers. The "Wiimote" might turn out to be even better, but I'm worried about the accuracy. The onehand analog stick (and other planned accessories) I see being a bit awkward to use at the same time as the "Wiimote" as it requires very good left-right hand co-ordination coupled with good left-right brain half coordination (maybe if you're a drummer it'll be more natural )

Imagine for example using the righthand "Wiimote" for aiming, and the lefthand analog stick for moving. With the right hand doing very different movement from the left, it'll be a problem for many until learned. But maybe it's all part of their "Brain Age" concept as it'll require you to exersise less used parts of your brain
The "Minority Report" concept could be even more taxing, both mentally and physically.

All these novel control methods indicate though that the traditional two analog sticks just don't cut it anymore with the increased realism and possibilities on next gen games.
I'm sure Microsoft will come up with something too (other than EyeToy copy), maybe for Halo 3...

 

[Shogmaster]

LOL I guess you didn't play MP3.

Unfortunately, I did.

 

[NANOTEC]

Unfortunately, I did.

I'm sorry but if you suck it's not the controller's fault. Looks like you need to brush up on those skills or lack thereof.

I found myself getting it. Starting to learn the intricacies. And the more I picked up, the more I excited I became. I field a lot of questions about how you can turn around and come back to center in a game like Metroid Prime 3. It's actually pretty intuitive. You simply point the Wii-mote in the direction you want Samus to turn and at a certain point she goes from aiming to turning. It's as though there is an invisible square that separates the two. If you're simply aiming near center, Aran will remain straight on. But the moment your reticule drifts beyond the invisible box and into the right or left fields, the character starts turning. To center again, all you need do is return the reticule to the invisible box and you're golden. If it's sound weird, it's not. The fact that most people who play the game never even question how it works is a testament to this fact.

The Wii-mote's responsiveness enables gameplay situations simply not possible with dual-analog sticks - even with their sensitivity turned all the way up. Once I figured out what to do - how to hold the remote and how much pressure to apply for aiming and turning - I was able to run through the game's environments with considerably less trouble and occasionally I found myself kicking a little ass. You can manually aim or alternatively auto target with the press of a button, and I employed both methods to obliterate foes. It was during these situations that I transitioned from being engaged to being hooked. When you're on your game, pointing the Wii-mote at multiple enemies can be a breeze and it's an extremely intuitive and rewarding experience. Retro seems to understand this because as a whole Prime 3 features more combatants than ever before and the artificial intelligence of these characters has been vastly ramped up.

Retro is using the nunchuck's accelerometer in an interesting, surprisingly non-gimmicky way. It controls Aran's grappling beam. You simply gesture flick the unit forward and the heroine's beam springs outward. The beam is used offensively, too, which is a pleasing addition, to say the least. Some Space Pirates come fully equipped with shields that they stubbornly refuse to part with, and therefore you have to figure out a way to disarm them. The grappling beam does the trick. Flick gesture the nunchuck unit toward one of these creatures and her beam will blast toward them and grip their shield. Then, all you need do is press backward on the nunchuck unit's analog stick and you'll literally rip the shield away, exposing the Space Pirate. This process is all the more intuitive because it can be done completely separate from the aiming process - once you've mastered it, you'll notice yourself blasting at enemies as you tear shields off others.

 

[Shogmaster]

I'm sorry but if you suck it's not the controller's fault. Looks like you need to brush up on those skills or lack thereof.

I did much better than anyone else playing thanks. Just to give you a point of reference, I was level 30+ in Halo 2. Trust me, I am in 90 percentile of gamers for console FPS.

And if you bother to read my post, you would know what the actual problem with Wiimote is for FPS. The IR emitter/sensor bar basically reduces the experience to point and click advanture instead of immediate control of the camera. That guy you've quoted doesn't even get to the fact that there is no way to consistantly center the cursor like dual analog set ups. Also, not having immediate control of the look camera means fast circle strafing is all but impossible.

Let me put this another way: If a hypothetical game was made on Wii that allowed both Halo like dual analog controls and MP3 like IR/sensor bar controls, those using dual analog controls would absolutely destroy the ones that prefer the Wiimode controls since they will be able to circle strafe the poor delusional bastards into the ground and then piss over their ashes.

 

[NANOTEC]

I did much better than anyone else playing thanks. Just to give you a point of reference, I was level 30+ in Halo 2. Trust me, I am in 90 percentile of gamers for console FPS.

And if you bother to read my post, you would know what the actual problem with Wiimote is for FPS. The IR emitter/sensor bar basically reduces the experience to point and click advanture instead of immediate control of the camera. That guy you've quoted doesn't even get to the fact that there is no way to consistantly center the cursor like dual analog set ups. Also, not having immediate control of the look camera means fast circle strafing is all but impossible.

First of all that "guy" is the IGN Wii editor. Second Retro chose a specific control scheme implementation so that people woudn't get dizzy from the camera constantly moving. It's not a limitatiion of the controller. Oh one last thing circle strafing is pretty useless when the guy with the super quick aim using the Wii controller blows you away before you can circle anything. Circle strafing doesn't help you when there are multiple enemies either.

 

[Shogmaster]

First of all that "guy" is the IGN Wii editor.

Who, Matt? Wow, a great impartial source I'm sure!

Second Retro chose a specific control scheme implementation so that people woudn't get dizzy from the camera constantly moving. It's not a limitatiion of the controller.

BS, BS, BS, BS, BS. It is exactly a limitation of the controller. And that "dizzy" BS don't fly since there are 30fps FPS out therer doing those exact things fine. A 60fps FPS like MP3 should not use that lame reason as an excuse.

Oh one last thing circle strafing is pretty useless when the guy with the super quick aim using the Wii controller blows you away before you can circle anything.

You have NO idea what you are talking about do you? The Wiimote user can only shoot quickly within the camera window in front of him. I can using DS set up, manuver myself to the side of him or behind him and take pot shots at him while he tries to turn the camera at the pokey pace.

 

[NANOTEC]

BS, BS, BS, BS, BS. It is exactly a limitation of the controller. And that "dizzy" BS don't fly since there are 30fps FPS out therer doing those exact things fine. A 60fps FPS like MP3 should not use that lame reason as an excuse.

How is it a limitation of the controller? Did you engineer the controller? Did you program the game? The Wii pointer can easily be used as a free camera with an aiming recticle in the center just like a mouse for PC FPS. Retro chose another implementation because they do not want the damn camera flying all over the place whenever you want to aim at something off center. They didn't want it to exactly mimic a mouse.

You have NO idea what you are talking about do you? The Wiimote user can only shoot quickly within the camera window in front of him. I can using DS set up, manuver myself to the side of him or behind him and take pot shots at him while he tries to turn the camera at the pokey pace.

Actually I do know what I'm talking about. The camera window is not fixed. Once you go out of the invisible cone, the camera turns. Stop pretending like you're some expert on the matter with your circle strafing BS. I'd like to see how fast you can accurately aim at multiple targets with your dual analogs compared to the Wii pointer. Get back to us when you can accuratey shoot multiple targets at high speed with your dual analogs.

It's as though there is an invisible square that separates the two. If you're simply aiming near center, Aran will remain straight on. But the moment your reticule drifts beyond the invisible box and into the right or left fields, the character starts turning. To center again, all you need do is return the reticule to the invisible box and you're golden. If it's sound weird, it's not.

If you can't get the hang of that then you simply suck...maybe you should just stick with your dual analogs and let people who know how to use the Wii control enjoy their games. Stop pretending it's a bad controller for FPS. There are different ways of implementing for FPS. Retro chose one avenue while others may choose a different one. If you don't like Retro's implementation then that's your problem not the rest of the world's problem.

 

[Shogmaster]

How is it a limitation of the controller? Did you engineer the controller? Did you program the game?

Dude, stop freaking out and just use your head. All the facts are out there.

The Wii pointer can easily be used as a free camera with an aiming recticle in the center just like a mouse for PC FPS.

PC FPS let's you directly control the look camera with the mouse. They don't let you do that with the Wiimote in any of the games. Logically, the reason for this is because mouse can be simply lifted off the surface and placed anywhere without screwing up how it relates positional data to the game. With the Wiimote, you have a very specific area you have to aim the IR emitter to (the visual range of the sensor bar), so mouse like roaming control is not possible.

And unlike analog sticks, Wiimote does not have a fast automatic centering mechanism (something that's impossible for a free hand held pointing device). So if you try to program a look camera function like an analog stick, you will end up with relying on the user to manually center the cursor, making for a unrelaible and frustrating aiming experince.

Retro chose another implementation because they do not want the damn camera flying all over the place whenever you want to aim at something off center. They didn't want it to exactly mimic a mouse.

Retro couldn't do it for the reason I mention above. It's not that they didn't want to. They couldn't.

Actually I do know what I'm talking about. The camera window is not fixed. Once you go out of the invisible cone, the camera turns.

When did I say it was fixed? I said it was slow to turn the camera. Learn to read.

Stop pretending like you're some expert on the matter with your circle strafing BS.

Compared to you, I'm a Phd.

I'd like to see how fast you can accurately aim at multiple targets with your dual analogs compared to the Wii pointer.

And the moment an enemy is outside of your current camera view, you are screwed because it takes so damn long to "push" the camera to their position.

Get back to us when you can accuratey shoot multiple targets at high speed with your dual analogs.

And get back to me when you can do that with Wiimote as well since every tremble and shake of your hands are translated on the screen. Hope you're not a coffee drinker! Moving enemies were a bitch with the Wiimote, which is why the traning wheel known as enemy lock on is still in the game.

It's as though there is an invisible square that separates the two. If you're simply aiming near center, Aran will remain straight on. But the moment your reticule drifts beyond the invisible box and into the right or left fields, the character starts turning. To center again, all you need do is return the reticule to the invisible box and you're golden. If it's sound weird, it's not.

It sounds slow as fuck, and it is.

If you can't get the hang of that then you simply suck...maybe you should just stick with your dual analogs and let people who know how to use the Wii control enjoy their games.

Again, I did very well on the demo. That wasn't the problem. The problem is that the game's controls were dumbed down for the limited technology of the Wiimote.

Stop pretending it's a bad controller for FPS.

I don't have to pretend.

There are different ways of implementing for FPS. Retro chose one avenue while others may choose a different one. If you don't like Retro's implementation then that's your problem not the rest of the world's problem.

Even if I buy that theory, then tell me why Unisoft (one of the most prolific FPS and TPS dev/pub of last few years) chose to impliment the same gimpy control set up for Red Steel as well.