Microsoft Surface tablets

[Arwin]

The stylus lets you run any desktop software comfortably, as it doesn't need a low density UI that also considers how the finger blocks the view of whatever is under it.

I don't agree with this. I have a Stylus, and have always had a stylus for just about everything, but the position a stylus forces your hand in is just not as comfortable or natural as resting your hand on a mouse or hovering it over a tablet for touch. Switching from keyboard to mouse is something most people do a tonne, and that matters a lot. And on Windows platforms, I have not found it to be very intuitive for a number of tasks, such as selecting and right-clicking, etc.

I agree it can be insanely precise and fast, and there are areas where it is unbeatable, but for me it comes quite a ways in third place after mouse and touch. In fact, my latest PC tablet has both multi-touch and 2500dpi pen features, and I was finding I was preferring to use my fingertips for controlling the mouse cursor.

It's still really great for drawing though.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I don't agree with this. I have a Stylus, and have always had a stylus for just about everything, but the position a stylus forces your hand in is just not as comfortable or natural as resting your hand on a mouse or hovering it over a tablet for touch. Switching from keyboard to mouse is something most people do a tonne, and that matters a lot. And on Windows platforms, I have not found it to be very intuitive for a number of tasks, such as selecting and right-clicking, etc.

I agree it can be insanely precise and fast, and there are areas where it is unbeatable, but for me it comes quite a ways in third place after mouse and touch. In fact, my latest PC tablet has both multi-touch and 2500dpi pen features, and I was finding I was preferring to use my fingertips for controlling the mouse cursor.

It's still really great for drawing though.

It's quite interesting how tastes differ so much. Myself I find the Stylus much more useful than touch. But that may just be due to my use cases. Lots of handwriting where touch just doesn't cut it. And since I still can't type worth beans on a touchscreen keyboard, handwriting is how I enter the majority of text.

I'm just too much of a touch typist to ever be comfortable typing on a touchscreen with no tactile feedback.

As to mouse. I'm not even sure on that as I've never been tempted to use a mouse on my slate or convertable tablet. On the desktop on the other hand I can't imagine not using a mouse.

Regards,
SB

 

[silent_guy]

It's quite interesting how tastes differ so much. Myself I find the Stylus much more useful than touch. But that may just be due to my use cases. Lots of handwriting where touch just doesn't cut it. And since I still can't type worth beans on a touchscreen keyboard, handwriting is how I enter the majority of text.

I have no hope that a computer will ever be able to decode my handwriting, because I can't do it myself either. It'd slow me down terribly and give me hand cramps. But I won a touchscreen typing game against a seasoned blackberry typist, so I'm all good... And, right now, things seem to be on my side.

 

[Ailuros]

I have no hope that a computer will ever be able to decode my handwriting, because I can't do it myself either. It'd slow me down terribly and give me hand cramps. But I won a touchscreen typing game against a seasoned blackberry typist, so I'm all good... And, right now, things seem to be on my side.

You're not by any chance in the medical/pharmaceutical branch are you? How about some science fiction? A holographic projected keyboard in front of the tablet.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I won't claim that these are the primary concerns for everyone, but it is hard to argue that the "strict" tablets have any advantages over convertibles going forward other than perhaps price, which gets muddy if you still buy a laptop in addition...

Well, the primary and perhaps only advantage for slates versus convertables is weight. My convertable, for example is quite a bit heavier than my slate. Granted, my current convertable was purchased around 2007 or so. I expect Windows 8 convertables to be quite a bit lighter.

Then again I expect Windows 8 slates to be quite a bit lighter than my current slate as well.

If they can make a convertable that is within .25-.50 pounds of a slate then I wouldn't ever really need a slate.

Going from 100-150 wpm (a bit slow, but I'm old and not a professional typist anymore) typing on a keyboard to less than 20 wpm with touch keys versus slightly better with handwriting just doesn't make slates useful for anything other than light work and media consumption. Although being able to easily connect a bluetooth or USB keyboard to my slate does take care of that, it's still handy to have it be attached at times.

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

It's quite interesting how tastes differ so much. Myself I find the Stylus much more useful than touch. But that may just be due to my use cases. Lots of handwriting where touch just doesn't cut it. And since I still can't type worth beans on a touchscreen keyboard, handwriting is how I enter the majority of text.

I hate handwriting on anything but paper. I guess I started typing at too young an age. I do remember taking notes in class though, where one particular class was so boring I started writing everything mirrored (which is surprisingly easy to do).

I'm just too much of a touch typist to ever be comfortable typing on a touchscreen with no tactile feedback.

I'm totally a touch typist, but adjusted to touch screens very well.

As to mouse. I'm not even sure on that as I've never been tempted to use a mouse on my slate or convertable tablet. On the desktop on the other hand I can't imagine not using a mouse.

Regards,
SB

I've never tried a mouse on a tablet (don't think the iPad supports it?) but I did hook up my bluetooth keyboard to the iPad which was amazingly comfortable, and should I ever go for extended writing on that device I'll definitely use that more (already had it, among others for PS3). Usually though the nice thing about the iPad is that you just grab and use it immediately, no fuss.

Still the only tablet fully supported by our cable provider by the way as far as I know, and they're extending the service all the time to the point where I can now watch about 30 channels using my iPad. That's a really big plus, giving us basically a portable TV. Anyway, I digress.

 

[wco81]

I never want to write again if I can help it.

If I was a student, I know I can type notes faster than handwriting.

 

[Helmore]

I never want to write again if I can help it.

If I was a student, I know I can type notes faster than handwriting.

I wouldn't, math is hard to do with a keyboard in my opinion and I'm studying physics.

 

[wco81]

I wouldn't, math is hard to do with a keyboard in my opinion and I'm studying physics.

True, but there must be calculator apps with keys to print integral symbols, various Greek letters, etc.

Though that is probably faster to handwrite out equations.

But for the rest, where you're basically transcribing or summarizing lectures, typing is better than handwriting.

Or better yet, record as video.

 

[rpg.314]

Touch+stylus is simply superior to touch-only. A stylus is superior to a mouse in every way except in ease of switching from the keyboard (few tenths of a second extra) and cost (minimal now). Fingers are inferior to the mouse in every way except for some multitouch gestures (and, of course, the convenience of being permanently attached to the human body).

The stylus lets you run any desktop software comfortably, as it doesn't need a low density UI that also considers how the finger blocks the view of whatever is under it.

You don't have to sell me on styluses.

My question was more towards why convertibles+stylus vs tablet+cover+stylus?

 

[rpg.314]

Biased certainly was a poorly chosen word. I should have said misleading for reasons I explained later: JS speed depends too much on browser and JS engine versions.

While it's true that JS by itself is not a proper measure for holistic assesment of an SoC, I do not find excessive dependence of JS speed on browser and JS engine a reason to consider it misleading. SoC's aren't just hw, they include sw stack too.

 

[rpg.314]

I wouldn't, math is hard to do with a keyboard in my opinion and I'm studying physics.

Which is why a stylus rocks. If only there was sw around to do math recognition + latex conversion...

 

[Arun]

Split the GPU architecture/algorithms discussion into this thread: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62552

Some of the posts responded to both the GPU and the stylus discussions at the same time so I kept them here or moved them depending on how important they were to both discussions. Also if anyone has a better idea for a thread title, I'm open to suggestions, it's hard to find a good title when the off-topic discussion itself changes topic several times!

 

[Mintmaster]

My question was more towards why convertibles+stylus vs tablet+cover+stylus?

I consider them the same thing. There's already quite a gradient when you go from the Surface's Touch cover to Type cover to Asus VivoTab to other convertibles, so there isn't really a distinct line.

They all can run a full OS with legacy software quite well, and it'll only get better with Haswell. It's the ARM tablets with maybe 0.1% stylus/keyboard penetration and therefore low-density interfaces designed for touch-only that I see having no chance in the corporate world when x86 hybrids will have trivial disadvantages and require no ecosystem overhaul.

 

[Mintmaster]

Which is why a stylus rocks. If only there was sw around to do math recognition + latex conversion...

Samsung's math recognition in its Note products does an impressive job in converting it to Wolfram-Alpha format, and it looks like Wolfram Pro lets you download it as latex.

 

[Mintmaster]

I wouldn't, math is hard to do with a keyboard in my opinion and I'm studying physics.

That's also why Apple (and probably Android) are going to lose on the education front. Stylus input is too important in high school or middle school, and not solely for the mandatory math/science classes either.

The stylus was such a perfect fit with Apple's creative image, but they shunned it because, IMO, they didn't want to give legacy apps a back door onto tablets. They wanted a monopoly in an entirely new market.

Surface Pro and seemingly most Win8 tablets - even those powered by Clovertrail - have inductive stylus support. They're going to be huge with the college and highschool crowd in a in a year or two.

 

[rpg.314]

That's also why Apple (and probably Android) are going to lose on the education front. Stylus input is too important in high school or middle school, and not solely for the mandatory math/science classes either.

The stylus was such a perfect fit with Apple's creative image, but they shunned it because, IMO, they didn't want to give legacy apps a back door onto tablets. They wanted a monopoly in an entirely new market.

Surface Pro and seemingly most Win8 tablets - even those powered by Clovertrail - have inductive stylus support. They're going to be huge with the college and highschool crowd in a in a year or two.

I think in case of Android, it is more a case of herd mentality than anything else. Nobody is producing stylus tables because nobody else is. When MS puts out surface with stylus, there is somebody to copy so everybody will copy MS. Lots of SW support from MS side helps as well.

 

[Mintmaster]

Agreed, and I think that solidifies MS's ability to lead on the "productive tablet" front. Apple and Google dug themselves a hole to crawl out of on that front, whether intentionally or not.

 

[idsn6]

Looking at Surface screenshots, there is zero subpixel font rendering outside of the Desktop app. Even there (e.g., this shot), subpixel AA is spotty and seemingly limited to older UI elements.

What, exactly, is the definition of a "ClearType HD" display? Because it clearly has nothing to do with ClearType the font technology.

 

[rpg.314]

Agreed, and I think that solidifies MS's ability to lead on the "productive tablet" front. Apple and Google dug themselves a hole to crawl out of on that front, whether intentionally or not.

Apple clearly has pretty strong anti stylus bias here, rational or not. I did a quick google and I found that ICS has native stylus support. It's a shame that Google isn't pushing stylus with Nexus 10.

Overall, I have been disappointed with Google aping Apple by and large. MS came late to the party, but they brought a UI that is definitely different than iOS and arguably better. You could argue that Google were trying to catch up to Apple so they copied a lot of stuff, but it's be >5 years now. Google could have started up a side project to create a new UX and then integrate it midstream. They have been trying to essentially out-polish Apple's -1 version with a barely-there control of hw/customizations/version/you name it.