Microsoft Surface tablets

[MfA]

there were apparently updates to both the os and office that fixes some performance issues. One of the reviews out there mentions that office is only a preview and not final shipping software . So i guess depending on when the reviews are done could determine performance issues.

Not that I think Office matters one iota for a format which is never going to be more than a bad laptop ...

I think this clearly shows Microsoft made a huge mistake by spurning Intel though ... Intel is never shy about backing the underdog if it's in their interest, Apple's increasing dominance is very much not in their interest. I think Microsoft could have gotten a great deal and a great x86 processor if they had partnered with them for this launch, Intel would have bumped up the priority of Atom a bit ... now they'll just increase support for Android instead.

 

[silent_guy]

Am I speaking in Swahili?

I wish! But the foaming at the mouth impression is entertaining too, so no worries.

When did I say that? I said it has long been the most important, and that's absolutely true. Name one top ranked TV in the last 15 years that didn't also sit among those with the best contrast. You can't, because no other factor (color gamut, brightness, etc) could make up for that. That's why LCD projection was never rated as well as DLP or LCOS, and why LCD flat panel hasn't been rated as well as plasma or direct view CRT.

Uncle rambling about TVs again.

I then gave an example as applied to cell phones. Who puts value in the difference between 720p and 1080p on a cell phone unless it's right up to your face?

Everybody? Because a cell phone is right at your face?

Earlier in this thread RudeCurve was telling me that 1080p on a 10.6" has no advantage over a 768p screen for getting work done, and that's on 4x the area or more vs cell phones.

I got plenty of work done on my C=64, but who's talking about getting work done? This is a tablet. The thing that's not supposed to be useful for content creation. It's for enjoyment. Where you marvel at the screen you for the sake of it.

Then you got some manufacturers offering higher resolution panels as an option in their notebooks, but not many customerse are choosing them, hence the prevalence of 1366x768. Clearly we're approaching a point of diminished returns.

Clearly, because there's no other explanation is possible. Go to Dell.com -> For Home -> Laptops. Try to find a laptop under $700 that has the option to upgrade from a 720p panel. Diminishing returns.

Jubei was talking like contrast doesn't matter at all, and resolution (along with cleartype) is the only relevant factor. He then took exception to my statement that contrast can make a Lumia 900 display look better than a iPhone4 display, saying nobody credible would agree.

Exactly: it is pretty much irrelevant for current high quality panels with excellent contrast. Cleartype and resolution are a much bigger factor.

 

[MfA]

Then you got some manufacturers offering higher resolution panels as an option in their notebooks, but not many customerse are choosing them, hence the prevalence of 1366x768. Clearly we're approaching a point of diminished returns.

The problem with high resolution laptops is there is that the middle end of consumers just isn't that big, apart from the gamers ... and while in the high end everyone had just caught up in build quality and were actually beating them in prices, Apple found a way to just remove all competition altogether. Macbook Pro is the only truly high end laptop there is now.

Wish it wasn't, I don't like Apple, they'll be the dead of hardware innovation on the desktop and their low/mid end hardware and iPhones are just plain not worth the money ... but that's still how it is for high end laptops.

The educated wealthy consumer give Apple money by buying the best hardware there is ... the halo effect allows them to get huge margins on everything else ... and everyone else is left to fight for scraps while the industry we PC gamers depend on for progress gets massacred.

 

[AzBat]

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/microsofts-first-stab-at-a-pc-surface-reviewed/



prob one of the better reviews out there right now. The verge and gizmodo were down right idiotic .

No GPS is a major bummer. Any other WinRT tablets have GPS? It's just another radio what was their thinking in not including it?

Tommy McClain

 

[MfA]

the MS slowface(*) vs ipad comparisons are gonna be major butthurt for MS employee's

That's just the biggest fucking failure, no one can compete with Apple on screens because no one has the volume they do ... the momentum they build up from iPod to iPhone to iPad is almost impossible to overcome in that respect. No one can afford to pay for the tooling for a complete display manufacturing line of their own but Apple. With the processor though they could have had the competitive advantage, even if Intel had to throw FinFETs at it to make it happen I'm pretty sure they would have.

 

[Ailuros]

Many people will sacrifice performance for ergonomics. 10 years ago very few people even used laptops because they didn't afford enough performance. If the device is fast enough for what you're using it for, a 2x performance boost isn't that big of an issue. It's not true of everyone, but the majority of PC/tablet owners need little performance.

When there's no prior experience with a recent laptop I can fully understand it; but if someone is using f.e. even a core i3 notebook with a decent enough add in GPU and then goes to a windows-whatever tablet the WTF effect will be there and not even talking about any advanced or complicated tasks either.

Try using a laptop as a cookbook in the kitchen.

These are subjective matters. I don't need a cookbook to start with, since I had worked in the past for more than half a decade as a professional. But even if I couldn't imagine what the benefits of a tablet would be in such a case.

Not joking actually: it's one of the daily uses of one of ours. Same thing for bathroom usage (clunky with a laptop), bedtime reading (us), bedtime cartoons (kid), car entertainment (kid), economy airplane seats, etc.

Subjective as above; I use all 10 fingers to type and to that quite fast. Unless a tablet has a dock with a keyboard (which bounces back to laptop ergonomics anyway), browsing (which in my case also involves a lot of typing) isn't going to cut it on a tablet yet for my needs. Frankly I don't need any device on the shitter, since thank God it's usually an affair of a couple of minutes; as for the rest I can understand a tablet when there are a lot read only browsing sessions which in my case doesn't apply. Again see what I wrote: for my needs.

My 15" laptop and iPad are both stashed under the bed and get about 50/50% usage. Just depends on what you're doing. Somehow, for web stuff, I don't feel the iPad 3 is considerably slower than the quad code i5 of the laptop, so the speed argument doesn't bother me there. That's even more so for web stuff with dedicated apps (e.g. dedicated forum reading apps, RSS feeds, etc. which accounts for 80% of my web consumption anyway.)

Still comes down as to what you're doing with each device and what the laptop hw exactly consists of; there are quite a few things tablets can't do for their own benefit. You're not obviously going to burn a DVD for instance on a tablet while simultaneously doing N other tasks, nor do tablets have yet any super fast hard drives. Whether notebook or PC using SSD hdds overcomes in many cases in overall responsiveness quite a few other hw upgrades/differences.

Given the topic your iPad or any iOS device isn't a fair metric for comparison anyway. Try placing upcoming win8 powered notebooks against upcoming win8 powered tablets within give or take the same price point and it's not going to cut the cake for the latter if there's a Tegra3, OMAP5, Qualcomm S4 or anything comparable inside. Once you have an adequate experience on windows platforms (and no I'm not exactly talking about everyone's grandma - and before I get misunderstood I actually admire elderly folks that try to keep up with technology) any differences are more than easy to detect. If its a conscious choice to use that tablet just for a fancy e-book reader or generic infotainment device than fine; for anything else somewhat experienced users are aware of any tradeoffs they're going to face.

 

[wco81]

That's just the biggest fucking failure, no one can compete with Apple on screens because no one has the volume they do ... the momentum they build up from iPod to iPhone to iPad is almost impossible to overcome in that respect. No one can afford to pay for the tooling for a complete display manufacturing line of their own but Apple. With the processor though they could have had the competitive advantage, even if Intel had to throw FinFETs at it to make it happen I'm pretty sure they would have.

Well, Google and MS both have the cash to make upfront payments of billions like Apple regularly does.

But they obviously won't do that unless they anticipate demand in the millions of units per quarter.

 

[Squilliam]

My personal verdict is to wait for either the iPad 5 vs Surface 2.0 comparison and/or see how the haswell?? version of the surface performs. I wonder actually if Microsoft will release a mildly revised version with the lessons learnt from the RT for the Pro.

 

[Ailuros]

My personal verdict is to wait for either the iPad 5 vs Surface 2.0 comparison and/or see how the haswell?? version of the surface performs. I wonder actually if Microsoft will release a mildly revised version with the lessons learnt from the RT for the Pro.

Whether Microsoft, Intel or anyone else when you start out fresh in a market it's reasonable to not go "all the way out" from the start. A toe in the water will show how the temperature looks like and depending on that it'll show how fast they're gonna dive in.

 

[Squilliam]

Whether Microsoft, Intel or anyone else when you start out fresh in a market it's reasonable to not go "all the way out" from the start. A toe in the water will show how the temperature looks like and depending on that it'll show how fast they're gonna dive in.

Yep, the whole tick/tock design philosophy has really taken off, see iPad 1 vs 2 which is still IMO the biggest leap in the iPad lineup for instance.

 

[silent_guy]

If its a conscious choice to use that tablet just for a fancy e-book reader or generic infotainment device than fine; for anything else somewhat experienced users are aware of any tradeoffs they're going to face.

Hey, you asked for reasons why anyone would prefer a tablet over laptop. I gave you some. That's all. A tablet is a non-essential luxury device for most.

 

[Ailuros]

Hey, you asked for reasons why anyone would prefer a tablet over laptop. I gave you some. That's all.

I said specifically that I can't think of much use for tablets over laptops and I don't sense much from your reply to it than typical e-book reader use for the tablet. It's not that I don't value your response. To add in fact to your reply, for those folks that take fairly long trips to and back from their work with public transportation a tablet is nearly a "must have" especially those that would otherwise pack a crapload of magazines, newspapers to read for their actual work. I drive to and back to work and it's usually just a painless 15-20 minutes drive on a national road.

A tablet is a non-essential luxury device for most.

How could someone disagree to that? :smile: One of the exceptions is above.

 

[zed]

I said specifically that I can't think of much use for tablets over laptops

This reply sent in bed on my back, sure i could use a laptop also but then also i could use a desktop, nah mate this tablet thing is the best (cept this touchscren typing)

Edit i should take a picture of me using it but how, facetime? No i need a seperate camera

 

[Ailuros]

I've used more than one tablet on a trial basis and while it might be marvellous for you, it isn't obviously for me.

 

[Jubei]

Jubei was talking like contrast doesn't matter at all, and resolution (along with cleartype) is the only relevant factor. He then took exception to my statement that contrast can make a Lumia 900 display look better than a iPhone4 display, saying nobody credible would agree.

Funny how you accuse me of putting words in your mouth and then go and do the very same thing. I never agreed or disagreed about your opinion regarding contrast. My exact quote was: "nobody would claim Lumia 900 has a sharper screen than iPhone 4 wich is what Microsoft has been claiming with Surface". I never took a stance on contrast or what screen "looks better" wich is a subjective opinion based on specific criterias. I only objected against ClearType + optically bonding = as sharp as iPad 3

You quoted me and changed the subject to contrast and then accused me of putting words in your mouth when i went back to the very topic i was discussing.

 

[Mintmaster]

You quoted me and changed the subject to contrast and then accused me of putting words in your mouth when i went back to the very topic i was discussing.

I did not change the subject. The subject was about, as dlm and you said, "visual quality". You then challenged his claims by focusing solely on resolution (which, to your credit, you apologized for), and now when I joined the same original topic of visual quality, you jumped into the same argumentation pattern you did against dlm: You directly quoted my statement about resolution and contrast both impacting overall display quality and retorted that nobody would find the Lumia sharper.

I made no claims to that effect and in fact stated that the iPhone4 is higher res, so why would you again be emphasizing sharpness unless you feel that's the only thing that matters?

Anyway, getting back to the Surface, it seems the display is very good, and it's not the factor holding it back. Apps are the issue. I don't think Windows RT has much life in it. By the time apps start making up ground, Clovertrail tablets will come down in price with the ability to run all existing x86 programs. I really think the non-pro Surface is just MS making a statement that it can make a great mobile device if they're put on the same playing field as Google+OEMs and Apple. They're not expecting it to take off.

Surface Pro is where MS is creating a product with a long term impact on the marketplace, not only through direct sales but also as an inspiration for OEMs.

 

[MfA]

Anyway, getting back to the Surface, it seems the display is very good

But it's not good enough for the price ... lets paraphrase what Anand said :
Microsoft couldn't use as good a processor as Apple so instead of getting a really good display they had to polish a turd ... and it's polished really really well.

I'm sorry that they misjudged the way Apple would push the high end tablet so completely, I really am ... but they did and by Microsoft sticking to their price point they are just setting themselves up for a huge fucking catastrophe.

A tablet is mostly for reading websites and watching movies in bed ... for half it's use case resolution is so fucking dominant they might as well not have even bothered coming to the high end price party without full HD. Adding on piss poor laptop capabilities doesn't really even it out.

 

[Laurent06]

Anyway, getting back to the Surface, it seems the display is very good, and it's not the factor holding it back.

First Anand didn't say "very good" but "quite good"

Second he writes this:

With the exception of text on web pages, the lower resolution Surface display isn’t overly bothersome.

To me it's a major point: when you read web pages, all what matters is text. I guess I'll have to check a real device to see if this point really is a problem.

 

[Jubei]

Microsoft was stuck between a rock and a hard place. They probably couldnt get 5 million S4 Pros in time for launch so their only option was Tegra 3 out of the vendors with ready windows drivers. They couldnt price it cheap because that would cause a riot in the OEM ranks. Either this will be another Zune or they will sell their stock and make a handsome profit while building their brand awareness slowly

But if they are serious about RT, they better start working for more powerful hardware. The majority of the reviews i have read complain about lag in desktop mode and slow apps. Maybe its the early software

 

[MfA]

They are in between a rock and a hard place of their own making ... they are trying to compete with Apple on their turf ... and to do that they have to act like a real vertically integrated company and say FU to the OEMs.

If they don't want to do that they have to differentiate ... the best way to do that would to not have jumped on the ARM bandwagon, with x86 they could have maintained compatibility. If they had pushed Intel would have had a better Atom SOC for tablets by now, or they could have gone with the AMD Z-60. Microsoft has the size to make things happen just a little bit faster, but instead they are just following.