Microsoft Surface tablets

[Grall]

Dunno , might be as silly as putting glass on both sides of a phone .

Touché. Although my iP4 has survived four drops to the floor at home without injury - although that's probably more due to the linoleum flooring I've got than the design of the phone itself. If it'd been ceramic tiles, or maybe even hardwood it'd probably cracked to hell and back. Then again, most any smartphone would. Even plastic or metal casings don't like to be dropped on hard surfaces from a height, and one side's always going to be glass regardless and if that ends up face-down then you'll be screwed anyhow.

Why with the snap feature i think most people will be using 2 apps at the same time and thus hold it in landscape vs portrait.

I'm unfamiliar with the feature you describe as I haven't been able to find a video link of the presentation yet - is there really no such thing anywhere on the web??? Surely MS wouldn't miss the opportunity, especially so close after Apple's web-cast WWDC which you can see the video from at their corporate site...

Anyhow - the tablet may have the pixels to support dual apps, but will it have the screen real-estate? It's only 10.something inches, widescreen. Wide screens have less area for a certain screen diagonal. It's not enough that you just have pixels for the two apps, you have to be able to use them too. Widgets can't shrink in size or you can't manipulate them with precision unless you stick your fingers in a pencil sharpener first. Text can't be read comfortably if it shrinks below a certain size. Especially if you sit with your tablet at arm's length, using a snap-on effing keyboard. I can't think of a more uncomfortable working position than having to lean in close over an attached keyboard to a tiny ten-inch screen due to my not-so-sharp-eyes-anymore, squinting at small type text while tapping on said keyboard.

This whole setup smells like a solution looking for a problem...but that's just me of course.

The pro verison is really amazing its almost everything I want in a tablet.

I'm slightly wary of an i5 in a tablet. That thing's invariably gonna need a fan to not either fry itself, the battery, your hands or all three, and small fans in thin cramped chassis = hisssssssssssss....

 

[(((interference)))]

Brilliant and unexpected move by Microsoft - the Pro addresses a real niche that exists between the iPad and ultrabooks. Pen input and a proper keyboard is a huge plus. The USB port alone is something so simple but makes so much difference.

And I guess this is why their Courier project never came out either.

Have no problems with the design either, I really like their Metro UI language, so modern and minimalist compared to iOS and Android, and now with Surface and it's smart covers, Microsoft really seems to be outdoing Apple in design.

Engadget got their hands on:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/hands-on-with-microsoft-surface-for-windows-rt/

So did Gizmodo: (apparently it feels better in hand than any of the iPads)
http://gizmodo.com/5919459/hands-on-with-microsoft-surface-for-windows-rt

 

[patsu]

Surface RT is basically the iPad competitor. Surface Pro competes more with ultrabooks because they run the full Win8 desktop os, and hence share all the same apps. Personally I have no interest in Surface RT, too limited like the iPad. But I'll be buying a Surface Pro once it's out.

Yes, that seems to be the case. iPad can run office suite too, so RT should be similar in power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TRU4QhedkD0 here is a good hands on with the RT verison. The Pro wasn't at the show which is a shame.

What is the dimension of the Pro model ? Based on what I have seen in the Microsoft Store, the touchscreen devices for Intel Win8 are too thick (More than half an inch) and heavy. Hopefully, the ARM version is thin enough.

The RTs are sexy because they are like iPad. Did they state any performance and resolution ? I know they didn't announce any price.

 

[RudeCurve]

Looks like there's two keyboard types.

BTW the Pro is 13.5 mm (0.5 in) thick vs 9.3 mm for the RT.

 

[joker454]

Brilliant and unexpected move by Microsoft - the Pro addresses a real niche that exists between the iPad and ultrabooks. Pen input and a proper keyboard is a huge plus. The USB port alone is something so simple but makes so much difference.

Yeah I think the Surface Pro is bloody genius as one device can serve as desktop, laptop and tablet. I'm going to ebay my old iPad, Mac Air ultrabook and Win8 test desktop and replace them all with a single Surface Pro and use the same apps as on my gaming pc and office pc.

 

[patsu]

Looks like there's two keyboard types.

BTW the Pro is 13.5 mm (0.5 in) thick vs 9.3 mm for the RT.

Okay, that's what I thought.

You can go to Microsoft Store today to check out the hybrid tablet laptop. It is about 0.5 inch thick too, and somewhat heavy. Perhaps they are working hard to reduce the weight and thickness. I remember Apple execs also mentioned that they tried this approach and decided to keep them separate for now. An ARM version may be thin enough, who knows.

The RT is already wider than the iPad, so it should be thinner. Would be great if they release the RT specs soon. Would be interesting to match Apple's Retina iPad, and the thinner iPad 2 specs. I suspect MS will try to undercut Apple in price, possibly with software bundle.

 

[ltcommander.data]

What is the dimension of the Pro model ? Based on what I have seen in the Microsoft Store, the touchscreen devices for Intel Win8 are too thick (More than half an inch) and heavy. Hopefully, the ARM version is thin enough.

The RTs are sexy because they are like iPad. Did they state any performance and resolution ? I know they didn't announce any price.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-surface-tablets-the-differences-between-rt-and-window/

The Pro is 13.5mm thick, so slightly more than half an inch. I think the bigger concern is that the Pro is about 40% heavier than the iPad 3, which was already generally criticized as being slightly heavier than ideal for a tablet. The weight may make the Pro tend more toward a laptop that can act as a tablet rather than a tablet that can act as a laptop. ie. it'd be preferable to use the Pro with the kickstand or keyboard or other surface than free-form holding/lounging.

I do wonder, that if the $85 license fee cost for Windows 8 RT is true and Microsoft is pushing their own first-party tablets, which appear to be pretty good designs, whether that is a strong disincentive for other OEMs to sign on to make Windows 8 tablets.

 

[patsu]

I have a feeling when Microsoft and Apple fight, we will get cheap stuff this fall. [rub hands]

 

[eastmen]

Touché. Although my iP4 has survived four drops to the floor at home without injury - although that's probably more due to the linoleum flooring I've got than the design of the phone itself. If it'd been ceramic tiles, or maybe even hardwood it'd probably cracked to hell and back. Then again, most any smartphone would. Even plastic or metal casings don't like to be dropped on hard surfaces from a height, and one side's always going to be glass regardless and if that ends up face-down then you'll be screwed anyhow.

I think we can agree that no material is going to hold up well to constant drops. The majority of people put these things in cases for that reason. Its like buying a car , no matter wht you do at some point its getting scratched.

I'm unfamiliar with the feature you describe as I haven't been able to find a video link of the presentation yet - is there really no such thing anywhere on the web??? Surely MS wouldn't miss the opportunity, especially so close after Apple's web-cast WWDC which you can see the video from at their corporate site...

Basicly running 2 applications side by side , you can select how much of the screen you want both to take up

http://www1.pcmag.com/media/images/260213-windows-snap.jpg

Here is a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nODsV71yedA

Anyhow - the tablet may have the pixels to support dual apps, but will it have the screen real-estate? It's only 10.something inches, widescreen. Wide screens have less area for a certain screen diagonal. It's not enough that you just have pixels for the two apps, you have to be able to use them too. Widgets can't shrink in size or you can't manipulate them with precision unless you stick your fingers in a pencil sharpener first. Text can't be read comfortably if it shrinks below a certain size. Especially if you sit with your tablet at arm's length, using a snap-on effing keyboard. I can't think of a more uncomfortable working position than having to lean in close over an attached keyboard to a tiny ten-inch screen due to my not-so-sharp-eyes-anymore, squinting at small type text while tapping on said keyboard.

You can change the size of what you have snapped. So while say surfing beyond3d you can have your twitter client up that way your browser doesn't take up the full screen and stretch out the content your viewing. Its not perfect but i'd perfer the 16:9 over the 4:3

This whole setup smells like a solution looking for a problem...but that's just me of course.


I'm slightly wary of an i5 in a tablet. That thing's invariably gonna need a fan to not either fry itself, the battery, your hands or all three, and small fans in thin cramped chassis = hisssssssssssss....

It has a fan but that shouldn't be a problem. They talk about it being designed with multiple air vents hidden in the design so that you wouldn't cover them when using it. It should run quite cool. Remember this is using a 2013 i5 . intel could have a 18 or 12nm one ready at that point.

 

[ltcommander.data]

I have a feeling when Microsoft and Apple fight, we will get cheap stuff this fall. [rub hands]

That does beg the question whether Microsoft sees their first-party tablets like the XBox and are willing to put up with slim-margins or even sell it at a lose to gain marketshare. We can certainly expect they'll pour a ton of marketing dollars on it like they've done for WP7 (Nokia devices in particular).

It'll also be interesting to see if this pushes Apple to release the much rumoured $299 iPad Mini this fall to pre-empt Microsoft. The Surface may be more capable, but a new low price iPad with it's large established ecosystem is going to snap up a lot of buyers.

 

[patsu]

That does beg the question whether Microsoft sees their first-party tablets like the XBox and are willing to put up with slim-margins or even sell it at a lose to gain marketshare. We can certainly expect they'll pour a ton of marketing dollars on it like they've done for WP7 (Nokia devices in particular).

It'll also be interesting to see if this pushes Apple to release the much rumoured $299 iPad Mini this fall to pre-empt Microsoft. The Surface may be more capable, but a new low price iPad with it's large established ecosystem is going to snap up a lot of buyers.

If they are indeed collecting $95 from the OEMs, then they will sink those money back into marketing. It is one of their last chances if they want to keep up with Apple and Android. Marketing dollars can be used to subsidize heavy discounts for users, plus aggressive ads. Another $500 million dollar (or more !) push from MS perhaps ?


If Apple does release a mini, I'll just buy a 13" MacBook Air plus a Mini, and that's it.

Alternatively, they can throw in an AppleTV with an iPad 2/3 this Christmas, so people can have mobile entertainment, plus AirPlay to TV for free this fall.


Whichever way I see it, I still see discounts [rub hands even quicker 8^P]

 

[french toast]

I have to say I'm very very impressed with microkia with this, very innovative that touch cover is genius.. really it is, the kickstand is also something much needed.

I love how anand describes the in hand feel and build quality...certainly this looks to be a high end premium device with excellent usability.

Unique magnesium finish and a very well designed solid kick stand reeks of quality, the cover is pure genius though it really is.

Those who say it is ugly need to get a grip..in comparison to what?? Also the 2 tired strategy is also genius as it starts off both types of windows for different budgets, but with the same design theme running through.

The first time a tablet can replace a laptop, the only down some to me at least is the screen resolution and likely tegra 3 chipset, also the battery is not as large as apple's..but can't wait to read a proper review.

Edit: also before people start complaining about the chipset in comparison to the new ipad you want to take another look, I'm no fan of tegra but when mated to a 720p display, and in combination with 4 cores it will be able to Match or exceed the new ipad in graphics for it's screen resolution.

The new ipad performs worse gaming wise than the ipad 2....just saying...

Could someone point out to me whether the Intel pro version will be able to use metro apps as well? Or is that just for the arm version?...certainly the ivybridge chip destroys a5x in every possible way.

 

[wco81]

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-surface-tablets-the-differences-between-rt-and-window/

The Pro is 13.5mm thick, so slightly more than half an inch. I think the bigger concern is that the Pro is about 40% heavier than the iPad 3, which was already generally criticized as being slightly heavier than ideal for a tablet. The weight may make the Pro tend more toward a laptop that can act as a tablet rather than a tablet that can act as a laptop. ie. it'd be preferable to use the Pro with the kickstand or keyboard or other surface than free-form holding/lounging.

I do wonder, that if the $85 license fee cost for Windows 8 RT is true and Microsoft is pushing their own first-party tablets, which appear to be pretty good designs, whether that is a strong disincentive for other OEMs to sign on to make Windows 8 tablets.

Well guess they either make Android tablets or pony up and make W8 tablets.

MS will have that license fee advantage but they'd have to invest a lot into the supply chain to achieve cost structure that Apple enjoys. Last year, Android tablet makers struggled to even match iPad pricing and so far, can't get supplies of retina displays in any kind of volume, if at all.

Apple invests billions to secure key components. Will MS do that as well? They didn't for Zune, which is probably why Zune was mainly a US product, because they didn't produce in high volumes.

If MS does go all out to ship in high volume, that further kills the market for would be licensees. Asian makers may be willing to try to carve out a niche in the W8 tablet market but would Dell or HP be willing to settle for minority shares while ceding majority share to MS? They will probably get better pricing on the licenses but will they see the W8 tablet business as being big enough (given MS taking a big chunk of the market)?

Only if people start migrating from traditional laptops to tablets en masse. Maybe then the market will be big enough for the big OEMs as well as MS to share.

 

[Florin]

the demo unit crashed while Sinofsky was showing it off.

Ah, the mark of a true Microsoft launch. A long tradition of Microsoft execs being embarassed on stage dating back at least as far as Windows 95.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Has anyone seen indication that it's a Tegra 3?
Since we don't know exactly when it's coming, it could be Tegra 3+, which is a bit faster.

The square corners and overall blocky appearance along with the black chassis with fields with different surface textures makes it look like it was designed in the 1980s, aimed at corporate suit and tie types. Typical microsoft design ineptness. Also, placing various ports and openings around the edges make the device look disorganized and haphazadly designed.

Also, the built-in kickstand is stupid, the huge speaker grille looks terrible (think of all the dust and grime that's gonna get stuck in that thing after you've rubbed all over it with your hands for months on end).

Oh, and the black (anodized?) finish is gonna get scratchy and ugly after a while, unless the metal really is that color solid through - which I doubt. It's not made of cast iron is it? (Bound to get rusty then, unless slathered in vegetable oil every once in a while... )

Also, widescreen aspect is bad on a tablet. The screen's too narrow to use comfortably in vertical mode, too low in horizontal; there's no natural fit for a page - or pages - in either orientation. It would only be ideally suited for watching movies on, but seriously... Who really spends a lot of time watching movies on a TABLET? Someone stuck on airplanes a whole lot maybe, but seriously again, to optimize the whole device for a fringe use is a bit too much IMO.

Widescreen tablets (like the galaxy tab etc) look great and panoramic in ads...and a bit stupid in real life.

Also, no PowerVR graphics (again, after the fail that is windows phone 7 GPU hardware.) Everybody in the industry know PVR is best for mobile devices, that's just the way it is (even Nvidia, although of course they won't come out and say it). Yet MS insists on putting fail hardware in their devices, they must be gluttons for punishment.

So you don't like it because it doesn't have the same shape as an ipad, it doesn't have the same screen ratio as an ipad, it doesn't have the same lack of I/O options as the ipad and because it doesn't have the same... GPU as the ipad (I find this one pretty amusing).

Well, I guess you'll just stick with the ipad and its perfect form.
It's okay, there's freedom of choice for everyone.


In my house there's both a 4:3 and a 16:10 tablet. I prefer the 16:10 tablet by a longshot because I use it regularly to watch videos and play some casual games. Furthermore, portrait mode on 16:10 isn't bad at all. 4:3 is good for those who do 99% web surfing, that's it.


The GPU wasn't really a choice. Windows 8/RT requires DirectX 9 and there's still no SoC out there with a PowerVR SGX544 and up (OMAP4470 is still nowhere to be found). Furthermore, the ULV Geforce in T33 should be a bit faster than the SGX544 @384MHz in OMAP4470.




I think there's a couple of genius touches in the Surface. The 3mm thick keyboard, the angled camera will make AR apps less difficult to use and the cooling system on the Ivy Bridge system seems great.

And this time Steven Balmer didn't run around the stage, waving his arms and yelling like an overly sweaty and rabid dog, so that's another plus right there

 

[Jubei]

Edit: also before people start complaining about the chipset in comparison to the new ipad you want to take another look, I'm no fan of tegra but when mated to a 720p display, and in combination with 4 cores it will be able to Match or exceed the new ipad in graphics for it's screen resolution.

The new ipad performs worse gaming wise than the ipad 2....just saying...

Could someone point out to me whether the Intel pro version will be able to use metro apps as well? Or is that just for the arm version?...certainly the ivybridge chip destroys a5x in every possible way.

Minimum resolution for Windows 8 is 1366 x 768. So it will be pushing a few more pixels than 720p

And yes the Ivy Bridge chip will destroy the A5X. But thats nothing new, there are windows 7 tablets out there today that also destroy the A5X. The issue is price and battery life

 

[sebbbi]

Has anyone seen indication that it's a Tegra 3?

No official information yet... I am secretly hoping it's going to be Tegra 4.

Some random Tegra 4 rumors tell us it's going to be out in late 2012 / early 2013 and have quad A15 cores with Kepler derived GPU architecture.
http://www.androidauthority.com/nvidia-tegra-4-specs-kepler-architecture-70626/
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-5...chip-leak-whets-appetite-for-non-ios-tablets/

 

[Laurent06]

certainly the ivybridge chip destroys a5x in every possible way.

Yes especially in battery life. Hmm wait...

 

[french toast]

Has anyone seen indication that it's a Tegra 3?
Since we don't know exactly when it's coming, it could be Tegra 3+, which is a bit faster.





So you don't like it because it doesn't have the same shape as an ipad, it doesn't have the same screen ratio as an ipad, it doesn't have the same lack of I/O options as the ipad and because it doesn't have the same... GPU as the ipad (I find this one pretty amusing).

Well, I guess you'll just stick with the ipad and its perfect form.
It's okay, there's freedom of choice for everyone.


In my house there's both a 4:3 and a 16:10 tablet. I prefer the 16:10 tablet by a longshot because I use it regularly to watch videos and play some casual games. Furthermore, portrait mode on 16:10 isn't bad at all. 4:3 is good for those who do 99% web surfing, that's it.


The GPU wasn't really a choice. Windows 8/RT requires DirectX 9 and there's still no SoC out there with a PowerVR SGX544 and up (OMAP4470 is still nowhere to be found). Furthermore, the ULV Geforce in T33 should be a bit faster than the SGX544 @384MHz in OMAP4470.




I think there's a couple of genius touches in the Surface. The 3mm thick keyboard, the angled camera will make AR apps less difficult to use and the cooling system on the Ivy Bridge system seems great.

And this time Steven Balmer didn't run around the stage, waving his arms and yelling like an overly sweaty and rabid dog, so that's another plus right there

Ha ha nice everyone is entitled to their personal opinion on things like design and aspect ratio, but let's be objective about it can we?

I don't like the ipad design, it's aspect ratio or its home button, that's my personal preference, but I can't tell you it's ugly, is poorly designed or rubbish....because its not.

Even to people who dislike micrsoft, you cEnt sit here and tell me it's ugly or poorly designed, it's clearly built of a high standard using premium materials, innovative features that should enhance the user experience.

 

[Miksu]

You can change the size of what you have snapped. So while say surfing beyond3d you can have your twitter client up that way your browser doesn't take up the full screen and stretch out the content your viewing. Its not perfect but i'd perfer the 16:9 over the 4:3.

When using two applications side by side, the other application's width is always 320 pixels and the rest of the pixels are available to the other app (1024 pixels min). The one taking 320 pixels of width is "snapped" and its size cannot be changed. It's always 320 pixels, no matter what resolution you're using.