Latest nV info

[Dave Baumann]

At the same time, if you were putting good or bad R-300 cores on a 9700 PCB and selling it at 9500 non pro prices, your margins would be slim, I'd even guess non-existant. Nevertheless, that's exactly what we have.

Not if the number of otherwise ‘junk’ chips outweighs the number of ‘good’ chips on that product.

Plus, its probable that the prices of the other R300 based products have this factored in as well.

Why is ATI putting these on 9700 PCBs? Timing. They got it to market faster, despite increased cost. Can be the same reason for using "good" chips.

ATI haven’t put a single 9500 on a single PCB, that’s down to what their third party board vendors want to do with it.

They needed to finalize the new "128 bit bus" PCB before shipping the 9500 Pro. Why? Because apparently, they can't "disable" 128 bits of the 9700 PCB while using 128 MB of ram.

In other words, WITHOUT the new PCB, it would be physically impossible to ship the 128 Bit, 128 MB, 9500 Pro.

Eh? This we already know – I’ve made countless posts along the same lines. But that was an answer to Russ’s point that he hasn’t seen many ATI 9500 PRO’s about despite it being finished well before Xmas.

 

[CMKRNL]

Sorry, I meant NV18, not NV17.

I'm speculating that the R350 will subsume R300. My theory is that it would cost too much to keep both an R300 and R350 line up. IMO, it makes more sense to speed bin the R350, and release a lower clocked version that predecates the R300. Then again, ATI might have a completely different strategy.

For reasons I can't get into, I don't think NV31 will be running significantly higher than 300Mhz on the current process.

Also, I don't think there's a big hole between NV31 and NV30. I'm not entirely sure what nVidia's plans are in this regard, but it makes sense to me that they would be speed binning NV30 and releasing a 400Mhz version to fill in the gap.

Someone asked about color compression, yes that's gone in NV34. That's one of the cost savings implemented.

 

[stevem]

Do we know R300/R350 pin/package compatibility? AIBs may not be happy with a board re-design soon after the ability to build their own boards instead of being supplied by the "OEM ATI" product. (Likewise the development of the 128-bit boards). Unless it's the R350 they can ODM...

 

[Arun]

Thanks for the details, CMKRNL!

I'd still like to note that the gap between a 300Mhz NV31 and a 400Mhz NV30 is *huge*, and it would keep a nice gap for ATI to fill.
400*8 = 3200MegaPixels/s
300*4 = 1200MegaPixels/s

A 350Mhz NV30 would make more sense. It's still a big gap, but it's already much more reasonable. And it should still be able to beat a Radeon 9700 Non-Pro.
350*8 = 2800MegaPixels/s

Now, for the NV34 memory bus... I don't think it makes sense for it to have a 64 bit memory interface. The NV34 is going to be the IGP of the next nForce. The GF4 MX was 64x2 instead of 32x4 for two reasons IIRC: to save money and to make it work more easily on a nForce.
So it makes a lot of sense for the NV31 to be 32x4 ( like the GF4 Ti and the GFFX ) and the NV34 to be 64x2.
But then, how will nVidia cut cost sufficently? To cut memory cost, no 128MB version and they'll use 64x2 as explained above. To cut chip cost, cutting functionality. To cut board cost, less efficient cooler and less features.

So, ideally, nVidia desktop line-up for H1 2003, if ATI products doesn't force them to cut prices, would essantially be:

*speculation*

$499: NV30: 500Mhz core: 4000MP/s, 256MB 500Mhz DDR2 w/ 32x4 bit memory bus: 16GB/s
$399: NV30: 500Mhz core: 4000MP/s, 128MB 500Mhz DDR2 w/ 32x4 bit memory bus: 16GB/s
$299: NV30: 350Mhz core: 2800MP/s, 128MB 400Mhz DDR2 w/ 32x4 bit memory bus: 12.8GB/s

$199: NV31: 325Mhz core: 1400MP/s, 128MB 300Mhz DDR1 w/ 32x4 bit memory bus: 9.6GB/s
$169: NV31: 275Mhz core: 1100MP/s, 64MB 275Mhz DDR1 w/ 32x4 bit memory bus: 8.8GB/s

$129: NV34: 250Mhz core: 1000MP/s, 64MB 200Mhz DDR1 w/ 64x2 bit memory bus: 6.4GB/s
$99: NV34: 200Mhz core: 800MP/s, 64MB 160Mhz DDR1 w/ 64x2 bit memory bus: 5.3GB/s

$69: GF4 MX 440-SE w/ AGP 8X ( NV18 ) : 200Mhz core: 500MP/s & 1000MT/s, 64MB 160Mhz DDR1 w/ 64x2 bit memory bus: 5.3GB/s


That's highly speculative, but it would be a very nice line-up. The only problem which would remain is the Radeon 9500 Pro, which got 2200MP/s at $219 - it beats the 1400MP/s NV31 at $199 very easily. So that line-up would still have several problems...
However, you also mention the NV33, but give no additional details. Could that be what fills in the gap between the GFFX at 350 or 400Mhz and the NV31 at 300Mhz? And does the NV32 exist, or is it a number which will never be used?

Also, CMKRNL says:

For reasons I can't get into, I don't think NV31 will be running significantly higher than 300Mhz on the current process.

Hmm, so you're saying NV31 isn't on the same 0.13 as the GFFX? AFAIK, the GFFX uses TSMC FSG 0.13 - I'm unaware of any slower TSMC 0.13 method. Is nVidia doing as ATI, and going UMC for low-end parts? Would make sense, but nVidia got a so good relationship with TSMC that this would be surprising.
Trident XP4, also on UMC 0.13, is clocked at 300Mhz. So it sounds like UMC 0.13 clock rate is around that. It remains possible, but unlikely.
Anyway, is the NV34 on 0.13 too? Or is it 0.15?

Not really asking for answers on my questions. But any answer would be nice If we don't get any, speculation is always fun


Uttar

 

[T2k]

Crisp clear speculation IMHO - kinda pointless.
I bet GFFX WILL NOT BEAT 9700 Pro in ANY TERMS OF PERFORMANCE w/ 4xAA+8xAF. Seriously, I believe.

Edit: grammar

 

[demalion]

Uttar, a card is not built on fillrate alone.

That is my brief commentary on your speculation and performance expectations.

To throw a monkey wrench into some of this, what if nVidia did something wild and crazy, and smart, like pull a P9 versus P10 with NV31/34 versus NV30? Would that be something you would have heard about, CMKRNL?

That is my brief contribution to the groundless speculation.

 

[Arun]

Uttar, a card is not built on fillrate alone.

Of course. But I'd suppose nVidia wants to roughly keep the fillrate/triangle setup/vertices ratio the same with derived cores. And I don't feel like giving two billion numbers when one would be sufficent.

And note I also mentionned memory bandwidth


Uttar

 

[demalion]

Your relative performance expectations are based on the fillrate alone, however. As I mentioned, that comment is aimed at your performance expectations as well.

 

[LeStoffer]

But I'd suppose nVidia wants to roughly keep the fillrate/triangle setup/vertices ratio the same with derived cores.

Why do you suppose that (just asking)?

 

[T2k]

Uttar, a card is not built on fillrate alone.

I don't feel like giving two billion numbers when one would be sufficent.

That's typically not true. You can draw faulty conclusions from only one number - just check your assumptions above -, especially in case of GFFX.

 

[tamattack]

As a small note: I still haven't seen a 9500 or 9500pro in the stores. Not at Fry's, compusa, best buy, electronics boutique, or circuit city.

I have seen 9500 Pro in Best Buy... In Canada no less.

So I would expect them to be plentiful in the U.S, unless they are selling-out quickly.

 

[nggalai]

I have seen 9500 Pro in Best Buy... In Canada no less.

So I would expect them to be plentiful in the U.S, unless they are selling-out quickly.

It's difficult to find 9500 Pro in Switzerland--apparently, there's some delivery problems, or they sell hugely. As I'm coming down, hard, with a cold from hell(tm), I wanted to get one yesterday to have something to play around with while sneezing my brains out. No dice. The shop-around-the-corner ordered some weeks ago, never received them, and my second choice just laughed and told me they had to order 60 of them just to cover online orders, and had been waiting for them for some weeks now, too.

ta,
-Sascha.rb

 

[tamattack]

Yes, it does sound as if they are hitting Europe quite a bit later than North America. I expect that may have something to do with product "localization".

Maybe you should try some made-in-Canada Buckleys for your Cold From Hell (TM). I know, "It Tastes Awful. And It Works. (TM)"

 

[MuFu]

For reasons I can't get into, I don't think NV31 will be running significantly higher than 300Mhz on the current process.

Hehe, they are losing a lot of sleep over that part right now, aren't they?! It's falling way short of initial at-speed estimates - an NV31 @~400/350MHz could probably run pretty well with a 9700NP (not my guess, to be honest) and all this "hole in the lineup" talk would be moot.

NV31 uses a new DDR-I memory controller while with NV34 they've essentially pulled cells from the NV18 design.

MuFu.

 

[OpenGL guy]

an NV31 @~400/350MHz could probably run pretty well with a 9700NP (not my guess, to be honest) and all this "hole in the lineup" talk would be moot.

NV31 uses a new DDR-I memory controller

NV31 @ 400 mhz engine and 4x1 = 1600 mtexels/pixels per second
NV31 @ 350 mhz memory = 11.2 GB/s bandwidth

9700 (non-Pro) at 275 mhz engine and 8x1 = 2200 mtexels/pixels per second
9700 (non-Pro) at 270 mhz engine = 17.2 GB/s bandwidth

I really don't think the NV31 is competitive at all with the 9700 non-Pro if you make the assumptions above.

 

[MuFu]

Like I said, not my guess...

MuFu.

 

[Star_Hunter]

Given the spec NV31 should be between 9500 and 9500Pro in performance (most likely closer to 9500).
In this case it's not much space to fit a new chip between NV31 and GF4MX.
(They will surely have NV31 clocked at different speeds.)

On the other hand a 4x1 chip @ 300 MHz and a 8x1 chip @ 500 MHz leaves a big gaping hole in the middle.
Kind of like at the end of last summer for ATI with nothing between the 9000Pro and the 9700Pro.

It would make much more sense if NV34 is a mainstream product, or maybe an integrated part.
But, not everything nVidia does makes sense...

ummmm The Geforce 4 ti 4600 does better then the 9500 Pro without AA ect. on. It uses 4 piplines THE SAME AMOUNT AS THE NV31. It also has the same core and memory speed.

to sum it up NV31=GF4 Ti4600 + DX9 support and .13nm (and a few other FX features but not all that make it on par with the 9500 Pro when AA ect. is turned on)

So how does the 9500 Pro beat NV 31 if it is a 4600 with better aa ect and dx9 support

 

[Dave Baumann]

ummmm The Geforce 4 ti 4600 does better then the 9500 Pro without AA ect. on. It uses 4 piplines THE SAME AMOUNT AS THE NV31. It also has the same core and memory speed.

It has twice the texture rate though...

 

[BoddoZerg]

And how do we know that NV31 has dramatically better AA performance than GF4Ti?

Based on what we know, we have every reason to believe that it won't... NV30 line seems to make even more usage of supersampling instead of multisampling... its AA performance will not be great.

 

[OpenGL guy]

ummmm The Geforce 4 ti 4600 does better then the 9500 Pro without AA ect. on. It uses 4 piplines THE SAME AMOUNT AS THE NV31. It also has the same core and memory speed.

GeForce 4 = 4x2.
NV31 (as quoted above) = 4x1.

I'd like to see NV31 at 4x1 and 300 mhz beat the GeForce 4 Ti 4600 w/o AA enabled: I don't think it would happen too often as most applications are using multitexturing.