Killzone 2 technology discussion thread (renamed)

[dlm]

I agree the article isnt motherh's and he never went into technical details or commented on specific parts of the article.

motherh is trying to keep his distance because of strict nda and of lack of expertise in the field. He many times said in technical questions that he wasnt the appropriate person to go into detail. He also knows that the boards are infested with kids, fanboys and people without any knowledge. It doesnt fit to explain in technical language the article's mistakes as if it was presented to people that know about development. He made a general comment appropriate to the kind of "audience" that are in there. Everyday people that see the general idea and not how things really work. Simply they dont. Even if you explain it to them

It's simply someone's fan article. What is it doing in here in Beyond3d? Jesus its someone unimportant who decided to make a blog. His article only serves in showing examples of the lighting system through images than explaining how things work and what is really doing the work there.

I dont think we should take this seriously. The guy is probably an excited fanboy targeting other fanatic PS3 fans and to show the "OMG PS3 POWER" to 360 owners. Passable article.

Your comments about motherH's statements are pretty much a mirror of mine

And I think the article only made it here because it's been posted on pretty much every site imaginable, and it's sad that people are taking it as a serious technical explanation of how things work.

I think it's good when there's accurate, well-written technical information out there. It gives those who are interested a chance to learn. And there are people out there interested in learning. Unfortunately, some of those people find articles like that and learn the wrong things.

Yes, it's the Internet, buyer beware. But it still bugs me when people pass of their uneducated guesses as fact and then try to use them as a teaching tool. There's so much actually good information out there, why shovel out crap just to try to get some sort of notoriety?

 

[morlock]

Regardles of how many misses he does on his "analysis" it's good to see fans trying to impress other fans by pointing out how cool a game is rather than trying to point out the weaknesses and faults a game has.

Positive FUD > Negativ FUD, sadly there are more people trying to bash a game rather than praise it. It seems most of the time anyway.

 

[Neb]

Regardles of how many misses he does on his "analysis" it's good to see fans trying to impress other fans by pointing out how cool a game is rather than trying to point out the weaknesses and faults a game has.

Positive FUD > Negativ FUD, sadly there are more people trying to bash a game rather than praise it. It seems most of the time anyway.

Yes as long as the information shared has it's ground in reality then yes, but as soon as it goes to delivering false/twisted information then it will do no good. :smile:

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

"The Creature", doesn´t that ring a bell from another thread here

Guess it´s the same guy

You guessed correctly. Your prize is nothing. All things aside, those links kind of included stuff that isn't really related to the same topic. My main point though, is that a lot of the stuff this guy's post talked about is just blowing things out of proportion. There's nothing special about distance attenuation of lighting, but he talks as if it's never been done before. Things like the indirect lighting as a result of lighting the sleeve is just a crazy assumption because he thinks that's what it has to be (it couldn't possibly be a hack or a desirable side-effect right?).

Other than that, I didn't really say anything all that different about DR in general from what Fran said.

 

[Ninja-Matic]

I think you good folks are not only misrepresenting the article I wrote - but me, as well.

You see... I'm not explaining HOW the lighting engine works or how ANY engine of KZ2 works... it's just an OBSERVATIONAL ARTICLE.

SO... please. Keep your comments about "but, but, but that's not how it werks" to yourselves. I don't know how it works and NEVER claimed I have.

You folks either need glasses or need a class on READING COMPREHENSION.

Just about most of what I posted was done in sleight. Or perhaps you didn't understand the vernacular: "Lighting - Zeus commands it" blah blah blah - get it yet?

You people call me a fanboy of this or that - yet you argue over a simple observational article? How trite.

http://ninja-matic.gametrailers.com/gamepad/index.php?action=viewblog&id=125517

 

[dantruon]

I think you good folks are not only misrepresenting the article I wrote - but me, as well.

You see... I'm not explaining HOW the lighting engine works or how ANY engine of KZ2 works... it's just an OBSERVATIONAL ARTICLE.

SO... please. Keep your comments about "but, but, but that's not how it werks" to yourselves. I don't know how it works and NEVER claimed I have.

You folks either need glasses or need a class on READING COMPREHENSION.

Just about most of what I posted was done in sleight. Or perhaps you didn't understand the vernacular: "Lighting - Zeus commands it" blah blah blah - get it yet?

You people call me a fanboy of this or that - yet you argue over a simple observational article? How trite.

http://ninja-matic.gametrailers.com/gamepad/index.php?action=viewblog&id=125517

expect another 10 pages for this thread.

 

[Neb]

expect another 10 pages for this thread.

2 words... 'damage control'.

...yet you argue over a simple observational article? How trite.

Cunning people pointed out the wrongs, nothing wrong with that. And the article was written as if it where facts presented to convince the reader. :smile:

 

[Fran]

You folks either need glasses or need a class on READING COMPREHENSION.

I use contact lens.

 

[nAo]

You see... I'm not explaining HOW the lighting engine works or how ANY engine of KZ2 works... it's just an OBSERVATIONAL ARTICLE.

It's not very observational as you didn't just report what you saw in those images, you added your own interpretation, so it looks more like a work of fiction. Nothing wrong with that, but don't get angry if ppl tell you that it was amateurish and higly inaccurate at best.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

You see... I'm not explaining HOW the lighting engine works or how ANY engine of KZ2 works... it's just an OBSERVATIONAL ARTICLE.

SO... please. Keep your comments about "but, but, but that's not how it werks" to yourselves. I don't know how it works and NEVER claimed I have.

Really... that's funny considering how many guesses you made as to what sort of features are present. e.g. presuming that there are no normal/bump maps on characters and it's all polygons? Talking about people claiming something and then proclaiming them to be "dead wrong" also doesn't sound much like an "observational" article.

Even if you could call it just an observational article, should you really be surprised that people are going to tell you that your observations are wrong and/or misguided?

 

[patsu]

Ninja-Matic, I actually like how you layout your points and the screenshots (I like the screenshots A LOT). Perhaps when GG has released sufficient details, you can update the article to reflect your latest thoughts.

I am impressed by the KZ 2 trailer for various reasons. I guess it's fun to share ideas with someone who're equally impressed too. In the mean time, do try to see what other developers are saying. I think your article will still be useful if you assimilate their feedback.

 

[dlm]

Ninja-Matic, I actually like how you layout your points and the screenshots (I like the screenshots A LOT). Perhaps when GG has released sufficient details, you can update the article to reflect your latest thoughts.

I am impressed by the KZ 2 trailer for various reasons. I guess it's fun to share ideas with someone who're equally impressed too. In the mean time, do try to see what other developers are saying. I think your article will still be useful if you assimilate their feedback.

This post deserves a prize. Thank you for this extremely reasonable and constructive post, Patsu

 

[DUALDISASTER]

http://fabio.policarpo.nom.br/docs/Deferred_Shading_Tutorial_SBGAMES2005.pdf
This should help out people who's having a hard time grasping this overly difficult rendering technique. Jeeze, with all of that shit going on they may not have room for normal/paralax maps. I hope this would be half-assed just for a bullet point on a box...

 

[Ninja-Matic]

It's not very observational as you didn't just report what you saw in those images, you added your own interpretation, so it looks more like a work of fiction. Nothing wrong with that, but don't get angry if ppl tell you that it was amateurish and higly inaccurate at best.

I'm not getting mad at people saying it's inaccurate... I'm getting mad at people PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

Never said it was accurate. It's just my observation. I'm sure there is a TON I got wrong and/or missed...

But then again... a LOT of people fail to realize that I'm watching a compressed QT movie... I'm sure artifacts can hinder the full detail of what the finished product will bring to the awesomeness that is HDTV's. MANY of the screens I tried exporting looked like junk (artifacts).

But I guess I shouldn't be mad at all. People read what they WANT to read.

Just like you see what you WANT to see when looking in the mirror. This is no different.

Now concerning other topics like sound design... this is my chosen field and I will do a full review on the audio... although... it won't be much more than "It sounds awesome" because we all know they will be using some type of surround and high-fidelity audio. There's no real way to say HOW they made sound X seeing as how there are an almost limitless amount of possible effect combinations that you can use to make sound X.

Oh... and i'm looking forward to people bashing me saying it's not in surround or I have no idea what i'm talking about.

 

[morlock]

Is the presentation from Develop up for download anywhere yet? Would be a interresting read.

Hopefully GG will be showing some more from this game att Leipzeig.

 

[nAo]

I hope it will be up asap, cause it's quite interesting, me really do like what they have done.

 

[DUALDISASTER]

I hope it will be up asap, cause it's quite interesting, me really do like what they have done.

Would this technique limit the amount of normal maps? And if so, why? Better yet what 's the pros and cons of what they've done really? 'cause there's too much flip flop here.

 

[nAo]

Would this technique limit the amount of normal maps? And if so, why? Better yet what 's the pros and cons of what they've done really? 'cause there's too much flip flop here.

Deferred rendering is completely orthogonal to normal mapping, so I don't see why it should limit the amount of normal maps used.
Deferred renderers tend to use more memory, so they might end up having less memory available to textures.

 

[zed]

its been a couple of years since i looked into deferred rendering but performance wise they should benifit from using normalmaps vs forwardshading + normalmaps (less samples).

has it been confirmed that killzone2 doesnt use normalmaps?, (personally i cant believe it)

 

[nAo]

has it been confirmed that killzone2 doesnt use normalmaps?, (personally i cant believe it)

I can see normal maps everywhere in KZ2 (and I can see dead ppl too.. )