Killzone 2 technology discussion thread (renamed)

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Terarrim, Jun 12, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Terarrim

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is the post I created on psforums:

     
  2. Terarrim

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    http://www.killzoneunit.com/kz/?p=647

    Sorry forgot to post the link to the original article above.

    Anyone have any comments on the potential benefit of the above technique. How about the fact that SPE's are going to be used for graphics?
     
  3. almighty

    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,469
    Likes Received:
    5
    Its interesting but RSX is'nt G80, GG are just very talented developers and have just found a way to do it on DX9 hardware, maybe or maybe not with Cells help. What about HDR? if they are doing MSAA does'nt that meen they cant be useing HDR? Well FP HDR atleast? Or maybe there using a completely custom colour space and renderer that allows then to have deffered rendering + AA + HDR?
     
  4. Terarrim

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would the above lighting alude to normal lighting or HDR?

    Also anyone have any comments on SPE's being used for gemotry (in parallel) and rendering a large set of primitives?
     
  5. Titanio

    Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    5,670
    Likes Received:
    51
    IIRC, from the Killzone thread in the general console forum, it was suggested that using MSAA with deferred shading is likely enabled by the absence of API restrictions that might exist with DX9 in the PC space, rather than anything on a hardware level. I'm working off memory, though, so I'm open to correction on that.

    Doesn't indicate one over the other. Indirect lighting accounts for the contribution of light reflected/bounced by surfaces, and not just the direct contribution of light sources..but whether your dynamic range is high or not is a separate matter.


    It sounds like the stuff presented in the Edge tools (in fact, IIRC the GDC Killzone demo was at partially pitched as a visual 'face' of Edge, so that would make sense). It sounds like they may also be doing some vertex shading on the CPU, beyond culling etc.

    Most of this is being discussed in the other killzone thread, really..
     
  6. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,576
    Likes Received:
    16,034
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    They ought to be calculating indirect illumination from HDR values, as that's a principle factor to indirect illumination. Walls have to be reflecting very bright light to illuminate other surfaces by a detectable amount. If the engine is lighting in HDR, indirect illumination is bound to be HDR also. TBH I can't imagine an indirect lighting solver that isn't HDR! Does such a thing exist?
     
  7. Terarrim

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you could point me in the right direction of the Killzone 2 discussion on this matter I would much appreciate it. Most of what I have seen in other threads didn't seem to have this information.

    I wonder wether the Cell is doing All the gemotry (its stating parallel processing so that would suggest at least 2 SPE's working on it). And using the RSX as the paint job. Although the mind boggles at the thought of the Cell doing primitives, all the geometry with everything else it needs to do. (Must be a big physics engine if what we heared about the distructable environments are still in!).
     
  8. Titanio

    Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    5,670
    Likes Received:
    51

    Is that an issue of computational precision versus preserving dynamic range in your rendered image (via higher precision surfaces or other means)? We had higher precision in shader computation before, or separate to having higher precision surfaces, so there may be a distinction to be made there. I'm just guessing really, though..
     
  9. dai_bo

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Using Cell for vertex shading and only RSX's pixel shaders? That would get you really far!
     
  10. Titanio

    Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    5,670
    Likes Received:
    51
    I'm sure they're not idling RSX's vertex shaders. But they may be supplementing them, and more likely still, doing geometry manipulation that would be difficult or impossible to do on the vertex shaders. Some of the descriptions of the video shown at GDC might suggest where Cell could be playing a role in geometry manipulation. e.g.

    If that's truly dynamic/physically modelled, it might suggest that Cell is altering model geometry..it possibly makes more sense to do that on a CPU if there is creation and destruction of geometry involved.

    (As an asides, it sounds like a demo I was considering trying to implement a while ago, whereby you'd have a box and could riddle it with bullet holes that were actually holes rather than decals, and that would update the lighting model inside the box - all dynamically, nothing prebaked. I'm not sure if anyone's implemented something like that in a game yet at the level I was thinking of, but I always thought it would be cool for something like an in-vehicle sequence where it's fairly dark inside, and you're suddenly under attack, and can see your vehicle's armour deforming and opening up holes, with the outside light streaming in. Come to think of it, if you treat stuff like bullet holes as new light sources - which you may not, but it was one way I was considering - a deferred renderer might come in handy, since the number of light sources you have to handle could scale dramatically in that sort of context)

    edit - could also make good use of a nice, dynamic indirect lighting engine. A 'bullet hole lightsource' would have the effect of a spotlight, directly illuminating only a small portion of interior (to the box, vehicle, whatever) surfaces..but for realism you'd want that light to bounce around the rest of the interior.
     
  11. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,576
    Likes Received:
    16,034
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Not sure what you mean. If I give an example, you can work out which of your things I'm talking about! If there's a room with a floor rendered at mid-grey with direct illumination, and hitting the back wall is a light source, for the reflected light from the wall to affect the floor by making it perhaps 10% brighter, the actual light reaching the back wall might have to be 100x brighter than the light directly illuminating the floor (depending on attenuation, surface colour, etc.) The subtle lighting effects of indirect lighting needs to be calculated from very high relative source values being reflected. A light source of 10x the brightness of a directly illuminated surface isn't going to have much noticeable reflectance. This is what I know from photography anyhow. I don't know if these can be hacked down to a narrow dynamic range and remain convincing. Still, when you've got HDR tone mapping being applied to the direct lighting, it makes no sense (to me anyway) to render the indirect illumination in a lower dynamic range.
     
  12. Titanio

    Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    5,670
    Likes Received:
    51

    I guess, what I was wondering was, if render surface precision mattered here versus the precision of the internal shader computation. Light source values aren't being rendered out, afterall, they're just used in the computation of our pixel values. I don't know enough here to say...perhaps someone will clarify.
     
  13. Terarrim

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    I got some more information for you and shifty regarding new information on what light engine Killzone 2 devs are using:

    Taken from PS3 forums posted by Epix

    Basicly on looking at those websites you have the following info:

    and regarding worldlight:


    Obviously it's we don't know Exactly what the portfolio they worked on for the Killzone 2 devs but maybe this has something to do with the way the lighting is rendered with distrable walls letting light through etc.

    Looking at the above features looks like this middleware would work a treat on the Cell (please see bolded sections).
     
  14. morlock

    Regular

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sweden
  15. jayco

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,738
    Likes Received:
    1,273
  16. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    13,249
    Likes Received:
    3,324
    I hope it will be something special since its 2.5 hours. If the game doesnt prove itself as the mindblowing work we are expecting and lasts that much in the presentation it will be a 2.5 hour presentation of dissapointment
     
  17. pakotlar

    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    805
    Likes Received:
    17
    ofcourse,
    does that even need to be mentioned?
     
  18. Crossbar

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2006
    Messages:
    1,821
    Likes Received:
    12
    I think this is something that will be part of the Killzone implementation. I remember reading an interview with someone from Evolution Studios (probably Scott Kirkland) who briefly mentioned that that Guerilla Games were adding some movie-like qualities to Killzone and he was obviously impressed from what he knew.
     
  19. DieH@rd

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    6,347
    Likes Received:
    2,351
    Its not just for one game. Its a pre-keynote-show for Sony...
     
  20. Titanio

    Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    5,670
    Likes Received:
    51
    According to Tempy at GAF who works at Guerrilla, the people invited will be split into groups and shown the game separately..it's not one big long 2.5 hour demonstration for everyone.

    Also, I'd mind your expectations :p I think a lot of people are expecting it to fall flat on its face, to be honest.
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...