JET SET RADIO (DC): Incredible Graphics

[ShinHoshi]

Yesterday, I was bored of all my games so I started again JSR (5th time). I was playing the game and I was amazed at how well it still looks. Perhaps in some areas the popping is very noticeable so it is the mip-mapping but the game still looks well.
Still running at 30 fps...but every character is cel-shaded and the amount of textures used in the environments is very huge.
I remember reading a quote from Smilebit which said they faked the cel-shading in the game...
But apparently the game uses TRUE cel-shading. And it isn't so expensive to use it. I did an OPEN-GL demo based on NEHE's tutorial and it didn't seem very expensive. Perhaps the draw of the black borders on models was the most expensive thing since you needed to render twice the models... but the cel-shading was a simple scalar product which gave you access to a 1D texture coordinate.
Does anyone knew anything about it ??

 

[London Geezer]

Yesterday, I was bored of all my games so I started again JSR (5th time). I was playing the game and I was amazed at how well it still looks. Perhaps in some areas the popping is very noticeable so it is the mip-mapping but the game still looks well.
Still running at 30 fps...but every character is cel-shaded and the amount of textures used in the environments is very huge.
I remember reading a quote from Smilebit which said they faked the cel-shading in the game...
But apparently the game uses TRUE cel-shading. And it isn't so expensive to use it. I did an OPEN-GL demo based on NEHE's tutorial and it didn't seem very expensive. Perhaps the draw of the black borders on models was the most expensive thing since you needed to render twice the models... but the cel-shading was a simple scalar product which gave you access to a 1D texture coordinate.
Does anyone knew anything about it ??

What exactly is "true" cell shading and how does it differ from "fake" cell shading?
I thought there were just many techniques to achieve the "cartoony-cell-shaded" look, and each is Cell-shading in its own way, still i never knew there was a "Real" way to do it that would make every other technique be "fake". :|

 

[ShinHoshi]

Then we are in the same situation. I really don't know in what differs true from fake.
Well, certain games abuse of Gouraud Shadding to simulate Cel-Shadding but that't the only example I know. Being Klonoa 2 one of them...

 

[London Geezer]

Then we are in the same situation. I really don't know in what differs true from fake.
Well, certain games abuse of Gouraud Shadding to simulate Cel-Shadding but that't the only example I know. Being Klonoa 2 one of them...

My understanding was that every technique is "faking" the cartoon look. Therefore there cannot be a "real" technique since they are all faking it. Cell shading is not an hardwired function so i wouldn't see how one could call a certain technique "real" over the other... And even if it was a hardwired function, that would not make the technique any more real than other software based methods.

But please do correct me if i got this wrong, anyone.

 

[Fafalada]

CelShading is a term coined to refer to "something that resembles cel-animation drawing techniques".
It doesn't refer to any mathematical approach or algoryhtm, and as such, every "cel-shaded" approach is equally real as any other (the only argument you can make is about aesthetics, which is a subjective matter).

Well, certain games abuse of Gouraud Shadding to simulate Cel-Shadding but that't the only example I know. Being Klonoa 2 one of them...

Abuse????

 

[V3]

CelShading is a term coined to refer to "something that resembles cel-animation drawing techniques".
It doesn't refer to any mathematical approach or algoryhtm, and as such, every "cel-shaded" approach is equally real as any other (the only argument you can make is about aesthetics, which is a subjective matter).

The same can be said about photoreal rendering, any technique is equally real ?

I am pretty sure, even in NPR, the technique that closer resemble its aimed, can be consider "more real" ? This is also the case with photoreal technique isn't ?

Does anyone knew anything about it ??

Sega patent the technique, so you can read it up on the patent, where it describe how its done.

 

[London Geezer]

The same can be said about photoreal rendering, any technique is equally real ?

I am pretty sure, even in NPR, the technique that closer resemble its aimed, can be consider "more real" ? This is also the case with photoreal technique isn't ?

But would it not be safe to say that "photoreal" can only be in one way, (something is either photorealistic or it is not), while cartoons have many different styles to them, therefore the distinction cannot be as sharp... :? Am i wrong?

Sega patent the technique, so you can read it up on the patent, where it describe how its done.

No thanks, had enough of patents lately

 

[V3]

But would it not be safe to say that "photoreal" can only be in one way, (something is either photorealistic or it is not), while cartoons have many different styles to them, therefore the distinction cannot be as sharp... Am i wrong?

I'll tell you, what's a real cel-shading,

This is a real cel-shading, Instead of lighting eqn, etc, we have a super AI of a cartoonist and game designer that draws every single frame of your cel-shaded game @ 24 fps and also do voice acting and script at the same time.

It would be able to draw new characters or scenery as it wish, it would replace any need for human artist or programmers input. You just have to communicate to it, to make a new games or cartoons whenever you feel like it.

 

[Fafalada]

The same can be said about photoreal rendering, any technique is equally real ?

Photorealism is a product of physical laws of the world we live in - that gives it a mathematical foundation that PR is trying to simulate.

There's no such thing for NPR - afaik we haven't found a way to define man-made artwork as a set of mathematical equations yet. And even if we did, there's countless different targets - work of different artists.
Yes there are good and bad solutions just like there's good and bad art but ultimately you can't call any of them to be more 'real' when there is no definition for what 'real' is.

I also never heard of anyone referring to photorealism as a rendering algorythm - which is usually the case with celshading (and was mainly the point I was replying to).

 

[Lazy8s]

Besides having pretty textures and effects, JSR's US commercial was genius. Definitely watch this:

http://www.goodcowfilms.com/farm/games/commercials/usa/JGRcommercial.mov

 

[Squeak]

but the cel-shading was a simple scalar product which gave you access to a 1D texture coordinate.
Does anyone knew anything about it ??

I always thought that it was just unshaded polygons of the same colour?

 

[ShinHoshi]

Abuse????

By abuse I wanted to mean that it uses a lot of goraud shading. Not that this is a bad thing since Klonoa 2 looks very good.

 

[nobie]

but the cel-shading was a simple scalar product which gave you access to a 1D texture coordinate.
Does anyone knew anything about it ??

I always thought that it was just unshaded polygons of the same colour?

In most cel-shaded applications I've seen there is still shading going on (thus cel-shading). Read about one possible implementation.

 

[Fafalada]

By abuse I wanted to mean that it uses a lot of goraud shading.

So does vast majority of all games (outside cartoon looking genre that is). Anyway speaking of K2, I'd really like to see another one made for big consoles, but with revising gameplay to be more along the lines of GBA versions - both puzzles and platforming was on a much higher level there then PS2 Klonoa. For me personally, K2 for GBA was the best platformer to date in current gen.

I always thought that it was just unshaded polygons of the same colour?

That was the common way to do it in PSOne days, but things have evolved a bit since then

 

[ShinHoshi]

Yes Fafa...I have yet to see a game that is 100% Cel-shaded. They just cel-shade characters and all the rest is filled by gouraud-shaded polygons or colorfoul textures...

I suppose that was a bad example...

 

[Fafalada]

Well from games already out, wasn't GC Zelda celshading more then just characters? (I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've seen it).

Killer 7 definately has a unified shading scheme across everything (and I am quite fond of the style too). Crimson Tears I'm not sure about, but characters look so cool I don't care really

 

[ShinHoshi]

Some elements in Zelda are also Cel-Shaded...I think that the grass was also cel-shaded (the gras leaves you could cut) but not all was cel-shaded. Just characters, enemies and some elements in the scenary...
Anyways, I liked more the JSR look than the Zelda one. Sometimes I am surprised at the amount of textures (and the quality of them) DC managed...

 

[Evil_Cloud]

Jet Set Radio, and certainly Jet Set Radio Future looks way better the Zelda, with perhaps only the particle effects of zelda that surpass JSR...

 

[Squeak]

I always thought that it was just unshaded polygons of the same colour?

That was the common way to do it in PSOne days, but things have evolved a bit since then

Oh, of course. Obviously I hadn’t really thought it through. Zelda WW for example, has lots of sharply defined lightmaps on the characters and also some regular textures.
So it’s like the old fake phong trick, only with fewer colours?