Jenin: an excellant read.

[Legion]

http://www.shalem.org.il/azure/15-henkin.htm

I found it to be very revealing.

 

[ByteMe]

All the palestinian sympathizers are gona hate that.

 

[Sxotty]

I found some of the stuff about urban combat quite interesting.

One thing that I fouhnd unusual is that the article exaplined how the media was biased and incorrect about Jenin, only the turn around and use equally biased accounts of other conflicts to justify the veiw of Jenin.

I think that we should put some cameras on the machineguns on humvee's and bradleys, so that we can have footage showing what is actually happening, and not have situations like the most recent Iraq issue, where we stated we killed 53 baddies, and they state we killed 6-12 civillians only. I thought it was especially funny when the reports say "The americans were firing randomly" If that were true then some americans would have died, the only way you can escaoe with nno casulties is to fire at the people firing at you.

 

[Willmeister]

I think that we should put some cameras on the machineguns on humvee's and bradleys, so that we can have footage showing what is actually happening, and not have situations like the most recent Iraq issue, where we stated we killed 53 baddies, and they state we killed 6-12 civillians only. I thought it was especially funny when the reports say "The americans were firing randomly" If that were true then some americans would have died, the only way you can escaoe with nno casulties is to fire at the people firing at you.

Not if you're all firing radially out from a single position or column...

 

[Clashman]

I thought it was especially funny when the reports say "The americans were firing randomly" If that were true then some americans would have died, the only way you can escaoe with nno casulties is to fire at the people firing at you.

I thought it was especially funny that they said they killed 46 bad guys, wounded 11, and captured 1, out of a group of 60 or so, leaving we'll say between 3 and at most 10 left. Then, when noone could find any bodies, they said "the remainder must have carried them off". I would be pretty impressed at any Iraqi guerrilla who could carry off 5 to 15 dead bodies all by themselves and not get caught. Truly an impressive feat.

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

I thought it was especially funny when the reports say "The americans were firing randomly" If that were true then some americans would have died, the only way you can escaoe with nno casulties is to fire at the people firing at you.

I thought it was especially funny that they said they killed 46 bad guys, wounded 11, and captured 1, out of a group of 60 or so, leaving we'll say between 3 and at most 10 left. Then, when noone could find any bodies, they said "the remainder must have carried them off". I would be pretty impressed at any Iraqi guerrilla who could carry off 5 to 15 dead bodies all by themselves and not get caught. Truly an impressive feat.

When you think about it, it's really funny.
WHat's to say civies didn't take the bodies to a graveyard or something along those lines?

 

[Clashman]

I don't think it's quite that easy to dispose of 50 bodies. That, and don't you think that after taking such a beating, as they supposedly did, that they'd lie low for a little while? But the very next day there was another U.S. troop killed in Samarra.

A "rebel spokesman" also said only two died, and that there were only 12 of them total:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...deast_afp/iraq_us_samarra_rebels_031202202102
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...1203/en_bpiep/coverageofiraqfirefightdisputed

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

A "rebel spokesman" also said only two died, and that there were only 12 of them total.

That seems like a realistic scenario.

 

[Sxotty]

A "rebel spokesman" also said only two died, and that there were only 12 of them total.

That seems like a realistic scenario.

First they left the area, and the next day the came back to look around. So there was all night to remove bodies.

Second, That scenario is highly unlikely, there were two seperate attacks leaving only 6 attackers per, and I am willing to bet that it would easy enough to go and find the casings littered around and establish there were more than 6 different people firing at either site.

Yes I am more than willing to beleive it is exageratted, but to beleive the other sides account as accurate is even more simplistic a view than beleiving the US side.

edit:

The article in question is not really about this anyway.

Did anyone notice the part where the guy was shooting between a womans legs with 4 kids on top of him. LOL I am sorry that is just too funny to me.

 

[MfA]

All the palestinian sympathizers are gona hate that.

Your precognition skills let you down.

 

[Legion]

I found some of the stuff about urban combat quite interesting.

One thing that I fouhnd unusual is that the article exaplined how the media was biased and incorrect about Jenin, only the turn around and use equally biased accounts of other conflicts to justify the veiw of Jenin

I wouldn't say the claim was they were incorrect. Rather it seemed the european media was for the most part out right lying. How are these accounts equally biased?

I also found the information on the UN's lack of action rather interesting.

 

[Sxotty]

Legion, my point was that most of the articles about checnya, somalia, and kosovo were also of the bent that crap they killed tons of innocent civillians, just like the ones about Jenin that it says are false. I do not know of either sets veracity.

 

[Legion]

Legion, my point was that most of the articles about checnya, somalia, and kosovo were also of the bent that crap they killed tons of innocent civillians, just like the ones about Jenin that it says are false. I do not know of either sets veracity.

It think it sshould appear rather obvious by the euro media's changing accounts of whom died that their stories were completely false to begin with.

I think the author's point was to show how onesided the euromedia is though historically europe among other world parties have found themselves in similiar circumstances. Infact, i'd even be tempted to say he is rather mocking numerous UN tactical blunders. The author certainly did a good job of presenting this fact. I never felt the author was trying to justify the IDF's position in Jenin but rather give examples of urban warfare where certain choices must be made that may seem unfavorable. I think later more realistic figures of the dead were evidence enough the euro/arab media had an agenda to misrepresent what happened in Jenin.

 

[Legion]

A "rebel spokesman" also said only two died, and that there were only 12 of them total.

That seems like a realistic scenario.

probably not. I would assume there were more dead and the spokesman is trying to down play the damage that may have been done to his a nationalist terrorist movement.

 

[Legion]

and I am willing to bet that it would easy enough to go and find the casings littered around and establish there were more than 6 different people firing at either site.

With all the commotion? Probably not. This idea doesn't take into acount they may have bags to catch the spent cases in.

 

[Sxotty]

I highly doubt the have bags for the casings that is an uneccesary encumberance.

BTW to all those that beleive the tripe that the rebel spokesmen say here is a good example.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/05/international/middleeast/05IRAQ.html?hp

Major Vincent dismissed as "very creative" the man's assertion that his cell had killed a total of 500 Americans. Six Americans have been killed in the area since late March, the major said.

So yeah we killed none of them and they killed 500 americans, but jeez I wonder who these americans were that no one knows existed, perhaps they just count them in their sleep, or generate random numbers to quote.

We want the world to know that Bush, the biggest criminal of all, and Blair, that monkey of the desert, will not be able to control the Iraqis

I gotta tell you I think that Bush should be the monkey and not blair... but oh well.

 

[Clashman]

The fact of the matter, though, Sxotty, is that what the rebel spokesman in the first article said happens to fit the facts much better than what the U.S. soldiers are claiming. As is even admited by them, an attack of the magnitude they claim is completely and totally unprecedented. The guerrillas do in fact tend to work in groups of 3 to 5 people, and they generally hit and run. Moreover, there have been numerous instances of soldiers overreacting and firing randomly. If you'd like to see an example, I suggest going to http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/view/ and watching chapter 6, a little over 7 minutes in.

As far as civilians hauling off the bodies, I find that hard to believe. In the heat of a major battle like that, most civillians are more likely preoccupied with their own survival, and running like hell to get away from it, not with ferrying dead guerrillas to some unseen, unknown burial spot.

There's also an anonymous account of the battle from a "US Combat Leader" which runs contrary to the official story. You can read it here.

 

[RussSchultz]

After reading it, I don't see how its "contrary to the official story". Its more details, but not contradictory ones.

 

[Clashman]

I don't know how you can say that. It outright states that he doubts that most of the people killed were resistance fighters, or even that the army really has any clue of how many people they killed.

Hack, most of the casualties were civilians, not insurgents or criminals as being reported.

The ROE under "Iron Fist" is such that the US soldiers are to consider buildings, homes, cars to be hostile if enemy fire is received from them (regardless of who else is inside. It seems too many of us this is more an act of desperation, rather than a well thought out tactic. We really don't know if we kill anyone, because we don't stick around to find out.

 

[Ty]

and I am willing to bet that it would easy enough to go and find the casings littered around and establish there were more than 6 different people firing at either site.

With all the commotion? Probably not. This idea doesn't take into acount they may have bags to catch the spent cases in.

Why would anyone in a non Spec Ops mission use a Brass Catcher?