Is this true about Cell Processor?

[hasanahmad]

The Cell processor has an internal algorithm that would negate any form of modchips to be used on a cell processor. is this true? I got this from an uncle who is a debugger in a vector graphics company. Is this true?

 

[robofunk]

Now that I think about it this might be a big reason why both companies went custom, refusing to run unsigned code not matter what. Buffer overflow exploits might still work though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It has inbuilt hardware security measures. I don't know what these are. I don't know if anyone does. Were details released with the OpenSourcing?

 

[hasanahmad]

yeah my uncle said the program is actually inside the processor itself so the PS3 Cell cannot be modded. That cant be true? they modded the Emotion engine

 

[London Geezer]

We'll have to wait and see, but looking at history, everything and their mother has been modded, and i'm sure that eventually someone in a rice plantation in China will find a way to mod the PS3 and X360.

 

[Platon]

Well, everytihng is moddable, even PS3 and xbox360, the question though is if they are easily moddable like today so eveyone can do it or if it will only be the hardwcore crackers that will be doing it...

 

[MfA]

All the present mods rely on hijacking the firmware/bios loading or the data from the drive, when both are encrypted things will get a lot harder ... buffer overflows can sidestep most protection though, as the PSP shows. The PSP also shows these are more easier fixed by firmware updates.

 

[DotProduct]

If there is some in CPU encryption/protection "modding" will be alot harder - maybe even impossible if you include economic considerations.

Afaik most arcade boards with heavy/expensive protection haven´t been cracked, what is some kind of proof, that NOT everything gets cracked/modded.

Of course there might be the opportunity to earn A LOT of money with cracking PS3/XBox 360, a fact that will motivate some very resourcefull people to try so.

But I guess that there is at least a 30% chance. that we wont see a crack/mod for one of the new consoles.

 

[robofunk]

It'd be interesting to see the stats on a cracked versus uncracked console. If they both had the same games and hardware capabilities the cracked would probably sell more hardware but would it also sell more games?

 

[London Geezer]

It'd be interesting to see the stats on a cracked versus uncracked console. If they both had the same games and hardware capabilities the cracked would probably sell more hardware but would it also sell more games?

Sorry what?
The cracked console would be exactly the same as the uncracked one, with the difference that you can play copies of games, and most likely games from other regions. That's how it's always worked.

Some people argue the fact that PS1 was as successful as it was because of piracy (I had friends with 1 original game - came with the PS1 - and the rest were all pirate), so it's all up to what point of view you look at it. In the end the software houses are the ones suffering, and it's hard to quantify how many PS1's have been sold because of piracy, and if these units wouldn't have been sold if it weren't for piracy.

Personally, i'd only mod a console (and i've never done that) to play imports. Piracy is just bad for the market.

 

[DotProduct]

This is a very complex matter.

If console a is cracked and console b not, then console b will be hurt, too.

Why? Because when people copy a game x they usually do not buy the comparable game y.
Why pay for something, when I get something similar for free?

So only exclusive must have games might sell on console b significantly better.

But afaik the modded console ratio is something between 10%-20% and console suffer alot less than the PC from copies.

Only few console owners have the capability to copy games, it is not trivial for everyone to get his/her console modded...

Actually publishers never boycotted a console for being cracked (They "boycott" the PC though, at least to some degree.).

 

[oi]

Although it's nowhere near as bad as it was during the SNES days, or even the PS1, Europe is still getting shafted when it comes to release dates. And the unwritten rule by publishers which says that Europeans don't like certain games is still alive and well (WE LOVE KATAMARI DAMACY, DAMNIT!), so no mod-chips would definitely suck ass for those of us who doesn't fit that stereotype.

I'm still confident that we'll see mod chips for the next gen too though, although I guess it might take a bit longer than before (which kinda sucks, since it took pretty long for any decent mod chip to show up this gen too!).

 

[cho]

"One unique design feature of Cell is the ability to fence off SPE processing units from each other through hardware protection features. This way, SPUs that are dedicated to security processing can be isolated from the rest of the system and have special reserved and protected memory that cannot be accessed by another process. This feature will be essential in future digital rights management (DRM) implementations, where the SPU creates a trusted environment."

"CELL MOVES INTO THE LIMELIGHT", MPR.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

You can encrypt the firmware all you want, but the encryption key is going to be stored somewhere. You can reserve and protect memory from software processes, but that doesn't do anything to protect against physical hardware scans. You can store microcode in the chip that will prevent modding, but people can read back microcode and reverse-engineer it.

People never really think about these things when coming up with protection schemes -- they just think "Make it harder to crack, and it'll end piracy." Ummmm.... yyyyeah.

 

[London Geezer]

One genuine question.

Has anything ever been safe from hacking/cracking? Anything?

Now, would a console have such advanced and expensive (to develop) protection that no one in the world would be able to crack it? Mmmm...

 

[Npl]

You can encrypt the firmware all you want, but the encryption key is going to be stored somewhere. You can reserve and protect memory from software processes, but that doesn't do anything to protect against physical hardware scans. You can store microcode in the chip that will prevent modding, but people can read back microcode and reverse-engineer it.

People never really think about these things when coming up with protection schemes -- they just think "Make it harder to crack, and it'll end piracy." Ummmm.... yyyyeah.

It wont end piracy, but if it can keep it a few years from getting significant, this already is a win.
If the increase in difficulty-to-mod is as steep as PS1->PS2, then piracy would be pretty low - only experts could do it and would likely charge alot money for it.

 

[DotProduct]

Just imagine there were RSA like decryption in cell, with the key build in hardware/gates.
Without the private key there is no way to run your own or modified code on the original cell -> end of piracy.
Decrypting opcodes with an RSA 2048/IDEA combination at 3,2ghz on the fly is probable to expensive for Sony/MS, but even cheaper/weaker systems would force the cracker to reverse engineer the CPU itself, something that will take alot of money and skill.

And that would only be the first step to crack the firmware. As in real life making a system safe is in theory relativly easy, _IF YOU HAVE UNLIMITED RESOURCES_. In praxis there is always a tradeof between costs and benefit and this tradeoff leads to systems being broken and banks being robbed. If every bank had a small army to protect it there would be no more armed bank robberies anymore. For the new consoles this means, that copyprotections are allowed to cost 10$-50$ max per console and not more. And there are not only the obvious manufactoring costs, there are costs for developers, too.
If games get significantly more expensive to develop, because of copy protection than something is wrong.
The same is true for the crackers. Every system is breakable _IF YOU HAVE UNLIMITED RESOURCES_. But noboby would invest millions in a huge army just to rob a bank with one million in it.
Modchips get cloned and everything, so nobody would propably be willing to spend 2 millions on cracking/modding a console.

So if MS can with 10$ per console make cracking it cost 2 millions the new Xbox probably never will get cracked.
And with custom CPUs and what MS has learned from XBox 1 I guess this could be possible.

Actually I am pretty sure, that in the end this war the console developers will win. If not this generation than next generation...

Just look at current PC Copyprotections: Since Starforce is developed by sophisticated programmers/professional ex crackers starforce is really strong and gets even stronger from update to update.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

PSP had anti-piracy measures, such as no-one but them producing UMDs, but that hasn't helped this far. They can close loopholes through firmware updates but it remains to be seen if they can resist the tide of the hackers.

 

[MfA]

You can encrypt the firmware all you want, but the encryption key is going to be stored somewhere. You can reserve and protect memory from software processes, but that doesn't do anything to protect against physical hardware scans. You can store microcode in the chip that will prevent modding, but people can read back microcode and reverse-engineer it.

If the key is unique that doesnt get you very far.

Personally I doubt whether they will encrypt the communication from the drive. That would make that the natural point of attack, just like old ps2 mod chips, not the firmware.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Just imagine there were RSA like decryption in cell, with the key build in hardware/gates. Without the private key there is no way to run your own or modified code on the original cell -> end of piracy.

If it's physically in hardware, how do you make the key unique short of having several different masks (i.e. chips cost more than beemers)? Unless I'm misunderstanding you in what you mean by having the key built into the gates. If it's stored in a hardwired ROM or a Flash ROM, the contents can be either read or wiped on modding -- yeah, you'll probably have to take it someplace as opposed to doing it yourself, but the most wrong assumption you can make about piracy is that people who can't pirate the content will invariably otherwise buy it. If you make piracy more expensive, I can't speak for others, but if I ended up spending loads of bucks to mod my console, I'd make it worth my while and pirate more stuff than I might otherwise have done.

If the key is unique that doesnt get you very far.

Well, I mean that if you can't do some mods that will bypass or crack the protection, you can still reverse-engineer the protection to the end goal of protecting homebrew and copied discs such that they look legitimate.

It's like the idea of Bluray considering a copy protection scheme that uses a new key for every 6 KB or something on the disc -- that sounds great, and all, but the keys are still stored on the disc.