Invert/non-invert controls *spin-up/down*

Discussion in 'PC Gaming' started by digitalwanderer, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    17,267
    Likes Received:
    1,783
    Location:
    Winfield, IN USA
    Thanks for the explanations all around! Now can someone explain to me if inverted mouse means it goes up when you go down or down when you go down? I think it switched over the last 20 years...
     
    Cyan, Alexko and homerdog like this.
  2. homerdog

    homerdog donator of the year
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    6,153
    Likes Received:
    928
    Location:
    still camping with a mauler
    Haha yes that is correct and I think that has always been the case although in the early days inverted might have been more common or even the default in some games. When I play on gamepad I use inverted right stick and some older guys like me do the same. None of the youngsters I know play inverted. This leads me to believe inverted was probably considered normal back in the day.

    I recall when I first played Halo on Xbox, when you first assume control the game asks you to look up. Whether you move the stick down or up Master Chief Petty Officer John 117 will always look up and the game will invert automatically if you pressed down. Both my brother and I pressed down. I bet no kids would do that these days.
     
    digitalwanderer likes this.
  3. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    17,267
    Likes Received:
    1,783
    Location:
    Winfield, IN USA
    Conferred with my son and he agrees. Sometime in the early 2000s they switched the meaning. :)
     
  4. Davros

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    14,891
    Likes Received:
    2,309
    Little history lesson for you from the Dos days (or as those who follow the teachings of the gaming gods call it the Old Testament)
    back in the day, the only real use for a joystick was for flight simulators
    (they were a big thing, when a new one was released you could guarantee it would be front cover of all the gaming magazines)
    and with plane controls you pull down on the stick to go up
     
  5. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    20,719
    Likes Received:
    5,815
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    Back then it was intuitive and "normal" for flight simulators (and the sort) to be "invert y-axis". Pretty sure that forward on the mouse has been "view upwards" in other games since mid-90s anyway. Quake II has the invert option, for example.

    I find that non-inverted only makes sense in the context of mouse UIs, but I guess everything is from a certain point of view.

    For 3rd person games, the issue is further bungled with how the x-axis rotation is treated. :p i.e. does moving the stick left mean CCW around the character (to make you see left) or does left mean CW-left around the character (view shifts to the right).
     
    #5 AlBran, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
    digitalwanderer, milk and homerdog like this.
  6. homerdog

    homerdog donator of the year
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    6,153
    Likes Received:
    928
    Location:
    still camping with a mauler
    That's what I figured. And I did play a lot of flight sims when I was young.

    As for the x-axis I think games typically go with left = look left as with 1st person although there are definitely exceptions and it usually takes me a minute to figure out why I'm sucking so bad :)
     
  7. Alexko

    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    4,496
    Likes Received:
    910
    One thing I've always wondered about is why flight simulators went out of fashion. Did gamers get tired of aircraft or something? Have low-cost airlines taken the mystery out of flying? But then again it seems that space operas have also gone out of fashion, and we're not exactly close to low-cost tickets to space.
     
    milk likes this.
  8. milk

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,988
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    I'm just waiting for the flight sim that is fully realistic. And by that mean, including taking your shoe for TSA, overpriced snacks at the boarding room, angry yuppie passengers yelling at the flight atendants during boarding, cramped seats, people getting up when the plane lands before the seatbelt light turns off and having to wait while standing up anyway. That is the true magic of flight, and yet no game really captures it.
     
    homerdog and Alexko like this.
  9. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,292
    lots of germs 'cos there is not enough time to clean the carpets of the plane, nor the seats, since the planes have little time to be cleaned in between flights, etc etc
     
  10. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    17,267
    Likes Received:
    1,783
    Location:
    Winfield, IN USA
    For me it was when they got in to the more advanced air craft they're just not as much fun to fly, it's more like work. WWI and WWII planes were seat-of-the-pants adventures, modern warfare your plane is a weapons platform that will be able to destroy targets before you'll ever see them.

    I think my fave simulator ever was a WWI fighter one, just you and your plane with a gun on it. :)
     
    green.pixel likes this.
  11. Entropy

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,059
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    I think this very true. The golden age of flight simmers, and those guys love their HOTAS passionately.
    Unfortunately this group destroys every damn space flight game by insisting on WW1 flight mechanics in space. Because it suits their sticks. And that never ever transfers well to the default controls. (And a bunch of other weirdness like lasers that go pew-pew-pew and flies through space at the pace of a brisk walk in the park.)That they want a Snoopy vs. Red Baron game to be tailored to stick play I accept, but that every game that isn’t on the ground has to control like that is infuriating.
     
    homerdog and digitalwanderer like this.
  12. Davros

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    14,891
    Likes Received:
    2,309
    One explanation i was given as to why he didnt remain a flight simmer was, back in the day flight sims were one of the few games that were in true 3d
    and now nearly everything is.

    I disagree a hotas suits newtonion mechanics just fine, generally flight simmers do not fear realism
     
    digitalwanderer likes this.
  13. Alexko

    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    4,496
    Likes Received:
    910
    I'm torn between the urge to engage in this debate and the reluctance to further derail a thread about such a (potentially) great game—especially since I've done my fair share of derailing already. Could a gracious mod perhaps split the thread?

    Many thanks!
     
  14. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    17,267
    Likes Received:
    1,783
    Location:
    Winfield, IN USA
    Good call Alexko, sorry for the derailing but thanks for carrying on the discussion. It really has bothered me over the years and I thought I was going a bit nuts until me and my son sat down and figured it out. LOL

    So is "inverted" if you pull back on your mouse you look up or look down? Let's get some terms straight....
     
  15. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    20,719
    Likes Received:
    5,815
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
  16. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    17,267
    Likes Received:
    1,783
    Location:
    Winfield, IN USA
    Exactly. Ok, what is it considered TODAY...is that better?
     
  17. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,143
    Likes Received:
    5,079
    It depends on the context.

    In flight simulators (and similar types of games) the "normal" control was to push "forward" to go down and pull "backwards" to go up. Inverted in those games means to reverse that.

    In FPS games (and TPS as well), the "normal" control was to push "forward" to go up and pull "backwards to go down. Inverted in those games means to reverse that.

    And then we had some games that would use flight sim terminology in their FPS or TPS games. More recently you started to see flight sim type games starting to use FPS terminology for inverted.

    IE - it's not so simple. :)

    I'm also with AIBran that there is no standard to how inverted is used WRT the X-axis (especially prevalent in top down or isometric games that allow camera rotation). And sometimes games don't give the option to invert how they do it...very frustrating.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    milk, digitalwanderer and AlBran like this.
  18. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    17,267
    Likes Received:
    1,783
    Location:
    Winfield, IN USA
    I could swear the early ones it was the opposite, gonna have to find my old copy of UT and Half-Life and see what they think is inverted and what isn't. (I'd say "Quake", but I was a UT guy and it was sort of a nVidia/ATi relationship between the two camps on which was better. LOL )
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...