Impact of nVidia Turing RayTracing enhanced GPUs on next-gen consoles *spawn

[OCASM]

A question to people who think RT will be the next big thing next gen: What about Tessellation?

Subdivision surfaces and geo displacement mapping has been a key feature of CGI way before ray-tracing was realistic even for high-end offline productions. And as such, it has always been taunted for the past 20 years as something that would make it's way into real time rendering, but never seemed to manage the transition fully. I mean, the first claim that Subdivision surfaces were the next big thing for real time rendering dates back to before 1999's Quake 3 for god's sake. We've been flerting with that idea ever since with every new console gen. PS2's VPUs were said to be able to do it, but rarely were actually given that task in released games (SSX resolved bezier surfaces in real time I think). Matrox Cards created their HW acceleration for them, later ATI with TruForm (Which was supported by a dozen or so PC games!) X360 did have HW tessellation in it which rarely got used, DX11 incorporated it in the standard specification, and even then, with both current gen consoles, PS4 and XB1, having HW accelleration compliant with DX11 standards, after 15 years of talk about this feature, most devs still show little interest in making that a foundational feature of their engines, even though that has been a bare minimum standard of CGI industry since it's beginning.
I know these two features: dynamic Tessellation (including subdiv and displacement) and Ray Tracing, are not completely comparable, and I can think myself of reasons why RT may be easier to adopt than the former, but it's worth remembering that even when a feature is highly desirable and it has been introduced in an actual product and implemented in actual games, it does not mean it will become an industry standard that fast. Ironically, the two things thing I hear from devs as reasons for Tessellation not having become completely ubiquitous still are that although reasonably programmable by now, the current standard is still not programmable enough for many desired applications, and the other one is that even being HW accelerated, it is bottlenecked by other aspects of the architecture in ways that make the cost not worth the end result. Both are very similar to complaints about the state of the HW RT implementation at the moment.
For next-gen, with all the talk about AMD's highly programmable next-gen geometry pipeline, and rumors of the architecture's impressive performance with micro-polygon rendering and massively complex meshes, it might be the case that Subdiv models will finally become the standard, and even then I'm a little skeptical. With that holy grail so eternally out of reach, It's hard not to be pessimistic about the other one that's arguably even holier, but also even further away.

A lot of old CGI doesn't hold up because the shading and lighting are too basic (compared to today) even if the polygon count is extremely high. Cornel box tests show you can make even a couple of cubes look very pretty with some nice GI so if I had to decide between RT and tessellation I'd definitely pick the former.

 

[milk]

A lot of old CGI doesn't hold up because the shading and lighting are too basic (compared to today) even if the polygon count is extremely high. Cornel box tests show you can make even a couple of cubes look very pretty with some nice GI so if I had to decide between RT and tessellation I'd definitely pick the former.

fair enough. Agreed there.

 

[chris1515]

A lot of old CGI doesn't hold up because the shading and lighting are too basic (compared to today) even if the polygon count is extremely high. Cornel box tests show you can make even a couple of cubes look very pretty with some nice GI so if I had to decide between RT and tessellation I'd definitely pick the former.

I don't think it is a question of choice but it is better to have the two and from a friend artist at Quantic Dreams doing high poly models and after extract normal maps is a longer process than doing high poly model and use subdiv and tesselation. I know full RT/path tracing help productivity too of lightning artist and rendering engineer.

 

[turkey]

now with DXR on GTX cards?
edit: I think this is misleading/fake. Do not attempt

https://twitter.com/x/status/1064539692001976320

Dice said they developed against a Titan V and only got the RTX cards shortly before the showcase. I wonder if this is actually an in game switch that has been set?

Going to have to add a new unit of measure tho, frames per minuite

 

[chris1515]

 

[OCASM]

@43:27: "We'll only implement things we that we can also match on consoles."

And that's why next-gen consoles should have RT support.

 

[BRiT]

@43:27: "We'll only implement things we that we can also match on consoles."

And that's why next-gen consoles should have RT support.

And cost $800 ... $600 for gpu and $200 for everything else.

 

[DavidGraham]

after 15 years of talk about this feature, most devs still show little interest in making that a foundational feature of their engines

They still use it in a wide manner with terrain, mud or snow deformation, water waves, walls, stones, and even character silhouettes (especially on PC). So I would say it's presence is pretty playable none the less.

 

[OCASM]

And cost $800 ... $600 for gpu and $200 for everything else.

Just work more hours

https://www.engadget.com/2005/07/06/sony-wants-you-to-earn-that-playstation-3/

 

[iroboto]

Just work more hours

https://www.engadget.com/2005/07/06/sony-wants-you-to-earn-that-playstation-3/

lol just come back to this point next year. It will come down. There's no point debating folks on it. As it is today, yes the price is high and it is within their right to highlight that. But it will come down, bide your time you have 2 years to go.

When X1X came out, 1070 was still more expensive, inflated because of mining, but still more expensive none the less.

 

[vipa899]

Dunno if it was allready posted, dont see it atleast, im impressed and so is DF. Many have been waiting for this article i think.

 

[BRiT]

Just work more hours

I'm perfectly fine with a $800 console if it meant nearly $600 for Graphical prowess and was as well built as the One X. That system is so damn small and silent and sleek.

 

[BRiT]

Dunno if it was allready posted, dont see it atleast, im impressed and so is DF. Many have been waiting for this article i think.

It's in the DF PC thread, I believe.

 

[vipa899]

It's in the DF PC thread, I believe.

Ah ok, but its a One X comparison too, so it could fit here too.

 

[London Geezer]

I'm perfectly fine with a $800 console if it meant nearly $600 for Graphical prowess and was as well built as the One X. That system is so damn small and silent and sleek.

Same. All I want for Xmas 2020 is a monster console with literally everything. But I’m not sure it would sell very well!

 

[Boxercide]

The ray traced reflections even on ULTRA are rough, and the open water is just a mess. Just based on DF's own analysis, their enthusiasm for the new tech often clouds features such as this. BFV's RTX implementation is not a good showcase, especially at the cost.

 

[milk]

They still use it in a wide manner with terrain, mud or snow deformation, water waves, and even character silhouettes (especially on PC). So I would say it's presence is pretty playable none the less.

Yeah, that is true. But I'm talking of the magical day when all geometry is represented as curved surfaces and subdivided and displaced in real time. That's my dream.

 

[vipa899]

If one x version runs at medium/low with dynamic res, what are the base versions running? Or is it only a resolution difference. Heres hope DF will cover that.

 

[Entropy]

Yeah, that is true. But I'm talking of the magical day when all geometry is represented as curved surfaces and subdivided and displaced in real time. That's my dream.

Eh, pardon for asking, but why?
Does reality consist of ”curved surfaces”? I just can’t see why this would be an inherently better way to represent the world, which overall seems more ”fractal” to me, for lack of a better word, but even that only really applies to some structures, far from all.
I’m genuinely curious.

 

[eloic]

Same. All I want for Xmas 2020 is a monster console with literally everything. But I’m not sure it would sell very well!

That literally everything includes BC, for me.
BTW, I couldn't help but SING your quote, I guess you know why.

The ray traced reflections even on ULTRA are rough, and the open water is just a mess. Just based on DF's own analysis, their enthusiasm for the new tech often clouds features such as this. BFV's RTX implementation is not a good showcase, especially at the cost.

The reflections in the Chinese MMORPG look pretty clear (maybe way too much, IMO), and I think they should be implemented soon. Let's wait and see.