ID buffer and DR FP16

[Shifty Geezer]

Is anyone even implementing reconstructive imaging on PC for comparison? It's nigh impossible to gauge what PS4Pro is managing with the ID buffer if no-one's trying anything comparable on PC.

Wish I could render half the pixels at ~the same quality on mobile!

 

[Globalisateur]

I don't know. As Sebbbi mentioned earlier, ti's safeguarded for now, he'll speak to it when the info is out there but not before. I don't know if anyone else here can speculate on it's possible performance improvements, but I haven't read/seen evidence of ID Buffer enabling CBR techniques that aren't possible on PC and 1X. And I haven't read/seen evidence of ID buffer reconstruction techniques providing a huge advantage over software based such that none ID Buffer platforms 'won't go there'.

Well, Cerny said that there was a huge performance penalty emulating ID buffer via software. And until now It's clear that the checkerboard solutions used on PC (Watchdogs 2, Anthem) are nowhere near the quality of what is done in R&C and HZD so we can rightly assume that they don't use the full Pro hardware method via software IMO.

Is anyone even implementing reconstructive imaging on PC for comparison? It's nigh impossible to gauge what PS4Pro is managing with the ID buffer if no-one's trying anything comparable on PC.

Wish I could render half the pixels at ~the same quality on mobile!

Here I compare HZD (Pro) and Anthem (PC).. The compression on Anthem's images isn't hidding the strong artifacts. And the artifacts on Anthem are basically everywhere, on low and high contrasted materials. HZD artefacts are much less severe and only seen in some areas:

Anthem:

Horizon Zero Dawn:

 

[sebbbi]

Is anyone even implementing reconstructive imaging on PC for comparison? It's nigh impossible to gauge what PS4Pro is managing with the ID buffer if no-one's trying anything comparable on PC.

Rainbow Six Siege had checkerboarding on PC (and that was before PS4 Pro). If you want to see a more modern reconstruction technique, I would suggest trying For Honor. They also reach 1080p on Xbox One with the same technique.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-for-honor-face-off

Quote: "However, in motion, it's virtually impossible to tell the two console versions of the game apart. The detail level is the same, texture detail is identical and even taxing GPU effects such as shadow resolution, depth of field and draw distance are entirely like-for-like. Even with (what we suspect to be) variances in temporal accumulation, the end result is still a nigh-on identical 1080p presention on both consoles."

 

[iroboto]

Well, Cerny said that there was a huge performance penalty emulating ID buffer via software. And until now It's clear that the checkerboard solutions used on PC (Watchdogs 2, Anthem) are nowhere near the quality of what is done in R&C and HZD so we can rightly assume that they don't use the full Pro hardware method via software IMO.



Here I compare HZD (Pro) and Anthem (PC).. The compression on Anthem's images isn't hidding the strong artifacts. And the artifacts on Anthem are basically everywhere, on low and high contrasted materials. HZD artefacts are much less severe and only seen in some areas:

Anthem:

Horizon Zero Dawn:

As per Sebbbis posts on For Honot, it doesn't really prove that ID Buffer implementations are light years ahead. You've managed to sufficiently prove that HZD reconstruction is significantly more complex than the vertical slice of Anthem.

Each game will do it differently. As noted earlier. Anthem isn't released for another year or so, I'm not really sure it's fair to compare the first FB CBR implementation and say it's set. It looks like colour average reconstruction.

 

[Allandor]

Well, Cerny said that there was a huge performance penalty emulating ID buffer via software. And until now It's clear that the checkerboard solutions used on PC (Watchdogs 2, Anthem) are nowhere near the quality of what is done in R&C and HZD so we can rightly assume that they don't use the full Pro hardware method via software IMO.



Here I compare HZD (Pro) and Anthem (PC).. The compression on Anthem's images isn't hidding the strong artifacts. And the artifacts on Anthem are basically everywhere, on low and high contrasted materials. HZD artefacts are much less severe and only seen in some areas:

Anthem:

Horizon Zero Dawn:

I really don't see where the artifacts (I think you mean the "saw") in HZD should be hidden (in this screen)? It's just a different angle (anthem 90° HZD ~45°) and another contrast (white vs gray and colored vs colored background). The artifacts in boths screens are clearly visible.

 

[chris1515]

For Honor use the same tech than Insomniac it is temporal injection not Checkerboard rendering.

And Insomniac said it is better than Checkerboard rendering.

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=222749691

community manager of Insomniac quote:

Well this thread is....

Some stuff - those screens are straight pulls from the frame buffer.

Temporal injection is a different approach ban checkerbording to get to 2160p that gets you AA too. We think it looks better.

The game is designed to run at a locked 30 so making frame rate changes was never in the cards. Sorry

It looks even better in HDR.

The engine tech was developed on our current stuff first and then we ported it back here.

 

[Dictator]

Well, Cerny said that there was a huge performance penalty emulating ID buffer via software. And until now It's clear that the checkerboard solutions used on PC (Watchdogs 2, Anthem) are nowhere near the quality of what is done in R&C and HZD so we can rightly assume that they don't use the full Pro hardware method via software IMO.



Here I compare HZD (Pro) and Anthem (PC).. The compression on Anthem's images isn't hidding the strong artifacts. And the artifacts on Anthem are basically everywhere, on low and high contrasted materials. HZD artefacts are much less severe and only seen in some areas:

Anthem:

Horizon Zero Dawn:

I have said it before and I will say it again. I think a cross title comparison on WIP stuff (not knowing exactly which each one is doing, btw) involves too much conjecture until we see actual like for likes that are *like for likes*. The quality benefit of idbuffer checkboarding vs. not, vs. software emulated vs. temporal injection vs. msaa trick etc. is best imo compared in the same title, with the same art, with the same framerate.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How easy will it be to optimise a technique not using the ID buffer to use it? Can we expect devs to properly support it instead of just porting their XB1+PS4 shaders across?

 

[Orion]

ID buffer is not just for checkerboard from what I gather:

With the PS4 Pro, the inclusion of an ID buffer at a hardware level is yet another way in which Sony is targeting aliasing on their new platform. Anti-aliasing smooths over diagonal and curved edges, so getting information about object boundaries is key–of course, this can be a challenge conventionally because objects (and therefore their coordinates) are constantly moving in-game. This is why temporal anti-aliasing implementations like TXAA–which attempt to eliminate jaggies on moving objects–tend to be costly, performance-wise.

The ID buffer allows developers to keep track of triangle and object boundaries from frame to frame. At high resolutions like 4K, aliasing isn’t that big a deal to start off with. The ID could allow developers to cheaply deploy temporal AA in native and upscaled 4K games, for the best possible image quality.

gamingbolt

The temporal antialiasing used in R&C is credited by digital foundry as having aided the 4k native-like look

From what I gather it may enable other similar techniques.

Though for its usefulness for such itd be good to see developer queries in interviews

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The real question is how expensive is it to implement an ID buffer in software? As a custom vertex property per object, it doesn't strike me as massively expensive in principal, although it is unwanted overhead.

 

[AlNom]

The real question is how expensive is it to implement an ID buffer in software? As a custom vertex property per object, it doesn't strike me as massively expensive in principal, although it is unwanted overhead.

I might be misremembering, but I had the impression some deferred renderers could keep track of certain items already, so maybe it's more useful for non-deferred setups ?

Like Insomniac, a custom setup might already be handling things just as well or better already because that's accounted in the G-buffer (maybe).

 

[sebbbi]

I might be misremembering, but I had the impression some deferred renderers could keep track of certain items already, so maybe it's more useful for non-deferred setups ?

Yes, some have triangle id-buffers already. Also triangle id's compress very well with DCC and MSAA compression.

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

OT:
What about current AMD's APUs and upcoming Raven Ridge: Will they benefit from native FP16 shaders because of limited bandwidth?

 

[AlNom]

^ & Intel iGPUs

Just need to get Blizzard on-board, right @Scott_Arm?

 

[Scott_Arm]

^ & Intel iGPUs

Just need to get Blizzard on-board, right @Scott_Arm?

My high-powered laptop is ready.

Spoiler

 

[sebbbi]

What about current AMD's APUs and upcoming Raven Ridge: Will they benefit from native FP16 shaders because of limited bandwidth?

FP16 execution has nothing to do with memory bandwidth. Games use mainly 8/10/16 bit per channel textures (fp32 textures are only used for special purposes). Memory storage and ALU/register precision is completely decoupled in GPU shading languages.

 

[chris1515]

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1413957

Wolfenstein 2 and Far Cry 5 will support FP16 and dual FP16

 

[chris1515]

 

[Allandor]

So it is ~13% faster in a non-realistic benchmark.
So it is a nice to have but not a must have.

 

[iroboto]

So it is ~13% faster in a non-realistic benchmark.
So it is a nice to have but not a must have.

the number is significant, I'm not sure if there are significant code changes/branches to leverage it, so it's entirely plausible that companies could use it go forward.