Hope for Japanese Development Practices?

[marconelly!]

IMO, at the rate things are going it's only a matter of time before western developers outsell Japanese developers even in the RPG and Racing categories.

RPG maybe, but racing... hardly. I don't see anyone except for maybe EA with some exceptionally good NFS game (and let's face it, that's not going to happen) on all three consoles being capable to outsell whatever Polyphony comes up with next. They are just too good at what they are doing, and the marketing power they have behind is again, unmatched. Besides, Sony is already Americanized enough to understand what kind of entertainment this part of the world wants, (and enough that most common folks don't even think of them as a Japanese company, in the sense they probably consider Nintendo for example)

Japanese developers seem to have a problem with developing games with emergent gameplay. Everything is extremely linear in games like MGS2 and FFX, whereas there are so many possibilities with games like GTA

Well, don't forget one of the first such games where it was possible to go anywhere and do anything - Shenmue. Zelda OOT is arguably also one such game, and from what I understand, Zelda WW is even more so. Don't forget that games like GTA and Fable are also linear in their nature as that you have to follow certain chain of events if you want to beat the game, (much like in Shenmue and OOT) but in the meantime you can go wherewer you want.

 

[Sonic]

Ozy, Panzer Dragoon was mostly built from the ground up on Xbox, but there was a working level from an early PD game on the Dreamcast. I imagine the game was somewhat ported from the DC version that was being worked on. I've only seen one level, and cannot really say how much of the game was finished on the Dreamcast. The engine was there, but definitely not in the same form it is on the Xbox.

 

[Cyborg]

There's no better programmers than KCET (konami's kojima division) anywhere. The programmers at KCET have truely mastered the ps2 hardware, they've done things thought impossible on such hardware. I dont care if your name is carmack, what KCET has done with 2000 hardware is truely outstanding.

From Software is so obsessed with making games for the Xbox because they "saw the light" in a way and realized that you're banging your head against the wall with PS2 compared to the relative elegance and simplicity of a nicely designed C++ Xbox game, which in fact enables code-reuse (another thing possibly never to have existed in Japanese studios to date).

Ever heard of userbase? Why should a developer even care about better dev'ing if his games likely wont sell as much as lets say PS2? Userbase of 50 million >>>>> C++, especially with xbox's pathetic userbase in japan. Japaneses developers see gamecube as the ps2's alternative in japan anyway, not xbox, and since gamecube is relatively as easy to code for as xbox, it doesnt help.

And i fail to see the "obsession" to make games on xbox coming from From softwars. Their main series, Armored core has been exclusive to PS2. Armored core 2, armored core 2 another age, armored core 3. Other ps2 titles, evergrace 1 & 2, eternal ring, king's field IV. Xbox only has murakumo, otogi and thousand lands. Gamecube has Rune 1 & 2 and gold mountain. See where the support went? Quite obvious if you ask me.

As for your argument, japanese developers dont have to catch up to western ones.. cause seriously, there's no western games that truely catch up to japan's best yet.

 

[MrSingh]

<shameless plug>you guys might want to check out the on-going series of articles on Tokyopia</shameless plug>

http://www.tokyopia.com/articles.asp?articlesid=43
http://www.tokyopia.com/megabbs/thread-view.asp?threadid=331
http://www.tokyopia.com/articles.asp?articlesid=44
http://www.tokyopia.com/megabbs/thread-view.asp?threadid=353
http://www.tokyopia.com/articles.asp?articlesid=45
http://www.tokyopia.com/megabbs/thread-view.asp?threadid=362

Great insight and comments from ex-Wow (yes, the same guy whose resume was posted earlier in this thread), ex-UGA and another guy from an indenpendent development house in Kyoto.

 

[Vince]

Only three Japanese developed titles on the list. If you look up the data for the top 20 it's 14/20 western developed titles, and so on. In other words: The Japanese no longer dominate the US console scene.

Johnny, I've been thinking of this off and on for a bit and I can't help but disagree now that I've pondered it a bit longer.

You state that the "Japanese longer dominate the US console scene" and seem quite confident in it utilising sales statistsics to back up your opinion. So, you have some valididty, but look at the whole situation.

Microsoft, for good or bad, has radically altered the console scene by courting PC developers already familiar with the DX development enviroment to it's platform. This pool of developers are primarily Western as PC games (AFAIK) don't seem to be developed significantly in Japan (which make sence looking at the big Jap. companies in the Console scene).

So, we've had an influx of Western developers in the Console scene thanks to Microsoft, but these developers didn't just form overnight. They've come at the expence of the PC platform, which is beyong the doubt of anyone - dying.

Thus, the influx (and abrupt increase in Western Dev's in the Console scene and their sales) aren't because of a structural demand for them in the Console arena thats allowed the formation of these dev. houses. But rather Microsoft has canabalized the PC arena to support XBox.

So, I think it's premature to count the Japanese out of the race as Microsoft has thrown in a wild card and flooded the platform with PC designers - bringing their own practices (most of which suck and, like most 'Westside vs. Eastside' comparasons are marked by the laziness and money driven needs of the West instead of the passion of others) to the game. Give the console platform a generation to normalize and then open your mouth.

PS. Just food for thought, but how do you think Japanese developers and their practices would fare developing on a platform thats on par with, or superior to the one Microsoft has? Looking at the Western trends to do as little work as possible (cut and paste, no active thinking necessarly, easiest way is best) I think they'd get eaten alive by the soy-enriched friends from the land of the rising sun.

 

[jvd]

Vince i think you have no clue what you are talking about. Neither way is better. Both have pros and cons. Both can get alot better by melding. The japs aren't god. They have alot of talent but so does the "west" There are many amazing games on the pc (which is never going to die) that the japs would never have come up with and on the flip side there are many games that the west wouldn't come up with .

 

[evil]

Re-use code ? By the time a game's finished the code's outdated :>

 

[wazoo]

I suppose you meant JSRF, GV, and PDO, so a enhanced port of a Dc game, a PC game retargeted on the xbox, and a in the making DC game retargeted to the xbox. I think we are looking at more than 11 months. amazing results, I agree.

I think you got some of this very wrong. GUNVALKYRIE, PC game? No, it was originally planned for DC.

That is what I read in the past. From my understanding, it was shown by SOE at London, I still have the video, but not really announced for the DC. Remenber that Smilebit was chosen at first for the xbox because of their DX skills.

JSRF is a whole new game from Jet Set Radio. I don't notice any of the same content between the two versions save for a couple of songs (and the JSRF versions are remixed).

The preliminary work was problably shortened due to the fact it was a sequel.

And Sonic can clarify this, but I believe that Panzer on Dreamcast was only in the planning stages.

Sonic replied.

What is objective fact however, is that Western developers have been tearing up the charts lately.

Yes, that is objective.

Japanese developers seem to have a problem with developing games with emergent gameplay

That is not.

The problem is that you are trying to explain lemmings/casual gamers behaviour with gameplay explanations.

People buy GTA because it violent, bloody and everything else.

 

[Vince]

Vince i think you have no clue what you are talking about. Neither way is better. Both have pros and cons. Both can get alot better by melding. The japs aren't god. They have alot of talent but so does the "west" There are many amazing games on the pc (which is never going to die) that the japs would never have come up with and on the flip side there are many games that the west wouldn't come up with .

I was talking about work ethic, not game making, in my last paragraphs. This has nothing to do with "talent". Why you'd even bring that up leads me to believe that your comment of me "hav[ing] no clue what I'm talking about" is quite unfounded.

 

[Ozymandis]

That is what I read in the past. From my understanding, it was shown by SOE at London, I still have the video, but not really announced for the DC. Remenber that Smilebit was chosen at first for the xbox because of their DX skills.

Actually, GV was originally a Dreamcast game that used both the controller and the lightgun. It was in Windows CE, which is why it was naturally ported to Xbox.

(did a little research)

The preliminary work was problably shortened due to the fact it was a sequel.

Then Super Mario Sunshine and Zelda shouldn't have taken very long either

Ozy, Panzer Dragoon was mostly built from the ground up on Xbox, but there was a working level from an early PD game on the Dreamcast. I imagine the game was somewhat ported from the DC version that was being worked on. I've only seen one level, and cannot really say how much of the game was finished on the Dreamcast. The engine was there, but definitely not in the same form it is on the Xbox.

Thanks for clarifying that Sonic

 

[wazoo]

Then Super Mario Sunshine and Zelda shouldn't have taken very long either

I do not think they took that long, not a Fable/getaway length.

2 years at most for Zelda GC is not that long, it it what we got between OOT and Majora MAsk

 

[Johnny Awesome]

RPG maybe, but racing... hardly. I don't see anyone except for maybe EA with some exceptionally good NFS game (and let's face it, that's not going to happen) on all three consoles being capable to outsell whatever Polyphony comes up with next. They are just too good at what they are doing, and the marketing power they have behind is again, unmatched.

Top 5 Racing games of this generation

GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC 2,774,445 - JP
ATV OFF ROAD FURY 1,246,214 - W
MIDNIGHT CLUB:STREET 1,037,073 - W
PROJECT GOTHAM RACER 742,270 - W
ATV OFF ROAD FURY 2 677,633 - W

Notice that other than GT3 the rest is all from Western developers? Besides, straight racing games aren't as popular as they used to be, due to the lack of emergent gameplay.

Well, don't forget one of the first such games where it was possible to go anywhere and do anything - Shenmue. Zelda OOT is arguably also one such game, and from what I understand, Zelda WW is even more so. Don't forget that games like GTA and Fable are also linear in their nature as that you have to follow certain chain of events if you want to beat the game, (much like in Shenmue and OOT) but in the meantime you can go wherewer you want.

Emergent gameplay isn't the same thing as non-linearity. It reflects the ability of the gamer(s) to create their own experience. Multi-player deathmatch is a good example of this, particularly in a game like Halo with a robust physics engine that can provide many different experiences several months after the game is out. Same thing goes for GTA3.

It doesn't matter that the main quests are linear, but rather that there is so much freedom to create your own experience along the way. No two players of GTA3 will have the same experience. Same goes for the upcoming Fable (if it works as promised). Shenmue was a great game, but it was too restricted. If you could beat up anyone on the street for example, with consequences of course, this would be a form of emergent gameplay. Instead, the gameplay in many Japanese titles is compartmentalized. The games of the 21st century are going to be so much more. Do Japanese devs understand this?

 

[Vince]

Top 5 Racing games of this generation

GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC 2,774,445 - JP

What?!? Isn't GT3 way, way past 3Million in sales? IIRC, isn't it like 6Million+

 

[London Geezer]

Top 5 Racing games of this generation

GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC 2,774,445 - JP

What?!? Isn't GT3 way, way past 3Million in sales? IIRC, isn't it like 6Million+

6 MILLION? nah don't think so...

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Johnny, I've been thinking of this off and on for a bit and I can't help but disagree now that I've pondered it a bit longer. You state that the "Japanese no longer dominate the US console scene" and seem quite confident in it utilising sales statistsics to back up your opinion. So, you have some valididty, but look at the whole situation.

Thank you for remaining civil Vince. I'm beginning to like debating with you.

Microsoft, for good or bad, has radically altered the console scene by courting PC developers already familiar with the DX development enviroment to it's platform. This pool of developers are primarily Western as PC games (AFAIK) don't seem to be developed significantly in Japan (which make sence looking at the big Jap. companies in the Console scene).

Yes, but of those games I listed only one of them is from a DX-based PC developer - Halo. The real story is GTA3 and the continued dominance of Electronic Arts.

So, I think it's premature to count the Japanese out of the race as Microsoft has thrown in a wild card and flooded the platform with PC designers - bringing their own practices (most of which suck and, like most 'Westside vs. Eastside' comparasons are marked by the laziness and money driven needs of the West instead of the passion of others) to the game. Give the console platform a generation to normalize and then open your mouth.

I think it's disrespectful to suggest that western developers aren't passionate about the games they make. Ubi Soft (Splinter Cell, Rayman 3) certainly care about making quality games. Rockstar are passionate about GTA3 and Bizarre Creations is passionate about Project Gotham Racing. Saying that "Japanese devs care about gameplay and gamers more than western devs" is another myth that floats about hardcore gaming circles all too often...

PS. Just food for thought, but how do you think Japanese developers and their practices would fare developing on a platform thats on par with, or superior to the one Microsoft has? Looking at the Western trends to do as little work as possible (cut and paste, no active thinking necessarly, easiest way is best) I think they'd get eaten alive by the soy-enriched friends from the land of the rising sun.

Japanese developers need to change. GTA3, Halo, Splinter Cell, and upcoming games like Deus Ex 2 and Fable are wiping the floor with Japanese games right now. Dreamcast died. Nintendo is having a hard time selling Cubes given their history and supposedly strong franchises. EA is the biggest and most popular developer. 70% of the Top 20 games were made in the west and it gets worse when you go into the Top 100. Look at the success of Jak & Dakster even. Who would have thought that Japanese devs would be bested at platform games?

Emergent gameplay is the wave of the future. Presentation is the wave of the future. Other than a few guys like Kojima, Japanese devs still don't get it. And even then, people laugh at the story in MGS2. I know you love it and I'm not going to debate it's merits again, but the average gamer thought the story was ridiculous. This will have to change with MGS3 or the game isn't going to do as well as it otherwise could.

Western developers ARE taking over. The numbers prove my point. What isn't clear is why? I think it's because of the lack of emergent gameplay and a presentation that is alien to most casual US gamers.

 

[wazoo]

Top 5 Racing games of this generation

GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC 2,774,445 - JP

What?!? Isn't GT3 way, way past 3Million in sales? IIRC, isn't it like 6Million+

6 MILLION? nah don't think so...

It has sold 6M worldwide (same as Gt1/Gt2 by the way)
before going platinium.

 

[London Geezer]

Top 5 Racing games of this generation

GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC 2,774,445 - JP

What?!? Isn't GT3 way, way past 3Million in sales? IIRC, isn't it like 6Million+

6 MILLION? nah don't think so...

It has sold 6M worldwide (same as Gt1/Gt2 by the way)
before going platinium.

wow thats a hell of a lot..... now i begin to understand why the gaming sector makes up for 35% of Sony's total profits...... and it's only going to get bigger and that will allow bigger budgets and longer development times. just like the movie industry...

and that's gonna be the same for western and japanese developers, even though i think the movie industry and the gaming industry will be pretty much shoulder to shoulder in terms of profits and budgeting one day and at the end, i'm sorry to say that big american blockbusters will prevail over japanese style....

and just like the movie industry u will have the few masterpieces from japan and some interesting titles from europe...

i could be wrong though...

 

[Fafalada]

Blah... as far as I'm concerned, West has been loosing touch ever more rapidly over the past year or two.
From Civ3, to HOMM4, to MOO3, one classic after another was ruined... badly. Not to even mention Warcraft3...
Next thing I know I'll be left with nothing bot KoeI to supply my strategy games.

Btw Johhny, not to dispute your numbers argument, but wouldn't it be a little more fair if you included numbers for other teritories. Europe in particular strikes me as relevant when it comes to racing games... (especially since some only get released there... ). Besides, when a classic like R5 did over 1.5M worldwide, it feels really unfair taking only it's poor US numbers in account.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

My numbers are merely TRST US data, which reflects roughly 50% of the market. This is an area of growing concern to Japanese developers. They're losing control of the largest market. Europe is no different when you break it down and developers like Ubi Soft and Eidos are even more dominant there, but it balances somewhat because EA isn't quite as dominant.

It's easy to point to a few games which disappointed and claim that western quality is sinking. Nevertheless, the real story is GTA3, Halo, Splinter Cell, EA, Ubi Soft, and all the western dev house like Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Retro Studios, and so on that Sony and Nintendo are relying on more and more to deliver them customers.

From a gameplay standpoint I would pit GTA3 (though I don't like it myself), Halo, Splinter Cell, and the multitude of good platformers like J&D and Rayman 3, up against anything out of Japan in the last little while. Solid gameplay is winning over gamers to western developed games. To suggest otherwise is simply denial in my opinion.

 

[Teasy]

I'm not going to discuss this argument as a whole. I'll just make one point. As far as Football games go nobody can come close to the Japanese so far. AFAICS no western developer has even created a really good Football game yet (with the exepction of Sensible Soccer many years ago, but that's not so good now).

Konami are geniuses when it comes to Football games. ISS from Konami's Major A division is still far better then any western effort IMO and its 3 years old now. Pro Evolution/Winning Eleven from KCET (another division of Konami) is so much better then any western Football game that I can't even come up with an analogy to describe the difference in quality