Hope for Japanese Development Practices?

Fast Fourier

Newcomer
As is probably not widely known but will soon be as Western developers continue to outdo their Japanese counterparts (just wait until E3!), game-making in Japan has hit sort of a fork in the road. Western developers have virtually leap-frogged Japanese developers for some specific reasons that can be remedied, and hopefully will be in the near future. The reason you haven't noticed this until now, is that the console gaming world has recently (at least for the past 20 years or so) been a Japanese dominated world, at least in terms of perception. Now the West is finally showing their hand, and it has humbled, humiliated, and in some cases, caused fears for the future of some Japanese companies.

I know of at least 2 companies, one of which is Sega, who are frantically trying to catch up to modern development practices. These practices, are used by any and all development houses (of any type of software, not just games), things like, oh, making sure the product is actually testable and builds correctly, or actually using Object Oriented Programming techniques, are not in as wide use in Japan as you'd imagine. What some of these companies have gone so far as to do is hire Western developers to come in and train workers about development processes, tools, and techniques. The way games are made in Japan right now are applicable to programming for the Nintendo Entertainment System, yes the NES. They aren't applicable to modern large-scale games. They hinder design, and creativity.

You can't code procedurally anymore, and the only reason some of these companies have been getting away with it is by either a) Throwing millions of dollars of resources on a project, or b) Virtually enslaving their employees who are underpaid and overworked but work happily because they have the desire to make games.

If you showed a Japanese programmer stuck in their ways how simple it is to create a game in C++ say for the Xbox, they probably wouldn't believe you. From Software is so obsessed with making games for the Xbox because they "saw the light" in a way and realized that you're banging your head against the wall with PS2 compared to the relative elegance and simplicity of a nicely designed C++ Xbox game, which in fact enables code-reuse (another thing possibly never to have existed in Japanese studios to date).

To explain as simply as possible with examples, what looks simpler and easier to design and modify?

Western style (a simple example from Game Architecture and Design):

class CFighter
{
public:
Bool Kick();
{
m_kick.Execute();
}

protected
CKick& m_kick;
}

class CKick : public ICommand
{
}

class CMildKick;
class CMediumKick;
class CHotKick;

or Japanese style may look something like this...

Msg(((fnp*)Kick)+(F*rand()/RAND_MAX + 1.0));

or even something like
mov ax,[_tx]
imul bx
idiv si
cwd
mov dl,ah
mov ah,al
xor al,al
idiv di
mov [M21],ax

The problems in Japan aren't limited to development processes, the whole image of a games programmer is about equivalent in level of disgust to the picture of an obese man wearing a Sailor Man outfit.

But when Japanese game studios
1) Start paying talent what they deserve and allowing them to have breathing room in their life, which will allow more "normal" people to enter the industry as well, and
2) Pushing things like OOP and using tools to make game design flow smoothly and not push all of the work onto single programmers who are frequently literally in the situation of sitting squat under a falling avalanche.

The success of upgrading development processes may be seen in Soul Calibur 2 and is seen as From Software pumps out Xbox games with a miniscule amount of resources (and all while against the wishes of top management for reasons of pride & politics). We'll see how it goes for Sega and Square, or Konami and Capcom, as they try to compete with the scope and flexibiltiy of Western developers toolkit. What's also good is that a company like Square might be found out for the virtual slave laborers they are.

Just check out this year's E3, games like Fable will be commonplace in 2 years. If the Japanese can't catch up to that, they are in deep shit.
 
Who the hell cares how the game is programmed. Most Western games suck. Until Western devs learn the art of fun everything else is pretty much irrelevant.
 
While you prove to have very interesting arguments it doean't mean your arguments are correct. You are wrong in your assertion that Japanese devs are behind the times, you are wrong in your assertions that some of them have a sort of slave labor, you are also wrong on SEGA. There is nothing wrong with the way Japanese devs function. You seem to clearly be looking at the big name publishers in Japan except for From Software. You're comparing the top Japanese devs/pubs against all Western devs/pubs. When you have a company that can throw millions at a game and have it return more millions than what it cost then that's not bad spending. You should be careful of when you say underpaid, as the most prominent wester game company EA underpays in quite a few departments.

Another interesting thing of note is how you say a nicely programmed game in C++ is what works. That might hold true for the Xbox, which has people working on it with years and years of experience in C and C++. You have the basic Windows OS, which thrives on programs that have code written in C and C++, not to mention VB. You have the DirectX API that has been through many different versions and is now a robust API that amazing visuals can be taken from. You have a base of knowledge that's unlike any other in the console world. But, at the same time, you still have sloppoly done games everywhere to be seen.

You should understand what it takes to make a game, there are a lot of different factors and many different ways to do it. You're telling me that the million sellers Nintendo makes are old fashioned and done in an inefficient way? Or is it that the company takes its time and cares for the final product to be the best it very can for the gamer? I opt for the latter, it seems to have gotten them consistent sales and is a good thing for long term success.

As for SEGA, that is pure business decisions. Western game devs have no more freedom to make the types of games it wants than the Japanese devs do. Just look at EA, enough said. SEGA's faults are from the men not behind the games but the men behind the decisions of what goes on in the company. The poor business SEGA gets is from its record breaking poor business decision making skills. Of course there is always hope, and for once it looks like SEGA might be making a few right decisions in a very long time.
 
As for Sega, from a peer's resume:

"Wow Entertainment, Sega of Japan, Tokyo, Japan
Programmed 3D game tools, engine and previewer to create levels and 3D real time cutscenes.

Features
Designers and Artists can generate levels or cutscenes with little to no programmer intervention including camera, lights, effects and game and non-game objects.
Cross platform, will generate data for any platform. PS2, Gamecube, XBox etc.
Cross tool compatible. Can use data from 3D Studio Max, Maya, Softimage and mix and match
Data is used directly from source 3D files (.3ds, .max, .mb, .hrc). No need for artist to export the data which usually leads to the problem of the artist forgetting which file the exported data came from.
Startable from web brower to make it extremely easy for designers and artists to use.
Conversion errors (missing textures, concave polygons, etc) do not stop build process. Once level/scene is finished any object that had errors is tagged, displayed in red inside the game or previewer and the errors for that particular object are displayable including going as far as marking particular polygons to show artists exactly what they need to fix.
Designed to allow editing on target console. Load up the game and edit inside the game.
Data format is directly readable as one large file providing shortest possible load times and possible spooling during game
These tools are considered Wow's Revolution. Before I created them Wow did everything by hand. "
 
Just check out this year's E3, games like Fable will be commonplace in 2 years. If the Japanese can't catch up to that, they are in deep shit.

I'll be in trouble in 2 years, with motion sickness from game with bad frame rate :(
 
Well, the thing about the C code versus the ASM... is that the ASM will generally be more efficient and offer better performance. Generally. :)
 
The success of upgrading development processes may be seen in Soul Calibur 2 and is seen as From Software pumps out Xbox games with a miniscule amount of resources
And what good is that really, when a From software game looks and plays like crap (Murakumo) and sells like crap (both Murakumo and Otogi)?

Really, why should anyone care how do Japanese programmers code their games as long as they are good, fun, and sell well?

You say they have catching up to do with games like Fable. I say 99% of western programmers have WAYS to go to touch the level of polish and quality that many Japanese games, like Zelda:WW, MGS2 or GT3 exibit. Yeah, Fable is an interesting concept and seems to be complex piece of code (although they keep cutting back on their original ideas all the time) but really who cares about that, if it turns out to be an unplayable and tedious game? Remember Black & White? That game was all wrapped in it's shiny concept, awesome programming principles making the whole world one big AI and all that crap. Turns out the game is pure boredom. Should I be impressed that it was all made using object oriented programming and reusable code? Frankly, I don't give a damn.

Really, western games have rarely struck me with their marvelously tight programming. Art directions, ideas, concepts - they've all been great with certain western developers - but the level of polish has more often than not been far and away below that of the best Japanese games.
 
Good engineering does not a good game make. :p

Although I strongly believe that good engineering practices are important to engineering modern games at a reasonable cost. Back in the day when I worked on ports, it became pretty clear that some of the more impressive lookikng games were some of the worst written.

It's also largely unfair to claim that all Japanese developers are incompetent engineers or that all American developers are good developers. There are plenty of examples of good and bad on both sides of the pond.

American developers might have had a leg up on needing to use decent engineering practices as a side effect of some what higher personell costs but that's about it.
 
Art directions, ideas, concepts - they've all been great with certain western developers - but the level of polish has more often than not been far and away below that of the best Japanese games.

Indeed, many westerns have to understand that building a game is more than a simple step by step process... That while something might be quite good indeed, and might make for a good game... Sometimes you have to scratch out/re-do mechanics, concepts, etc.... Until you reach the point were it's all gold and magical.
 
I can only imagine how much ASM was involved with ZoE2. Holy crap that game looks amazing... a wee-too-many slowdowns for my taste though.
 
I agree with some of what you say Fast Fourier. I'm not sure about the inner workings of Japanese and Western dev houses, but it's pretty clear that Japan is quickly losing its dominance on consoles. I've been saying this for the past 18 months or so and people around here think I'm crazy, but you offer some food for thought.

Maybe the reason why Japanese developers have a hard time coming up with winning concepts lately is that it's very difficult for one person to be solid at programming, presentation, and all the other aspects of a game. Lack of object oriented tools might tend to force projects to reflect the views of only one person.

Example: Yu Suzuki has horrible taste in music. Thus the music in most VF games and F355 etc.. is horrible. This hurts the sales of these titles. A Western developer would trust the judgment of the music team a lot more and probably end up with something much more palatable.

It's pretty sad that Nintendo had to enlist the help of Retro studios to give them a blockbuster for holiday 2002. Without Visual Concepts Sega would be in HUGE trouble right now. The big games are almost all Western games: The Getaway, GTA, Halo, Splinter Cell, Metroid Prime, Madden, EA games in general, Sega Sports.

Sure you have the occasional exception like Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid, but these are getting rare all the time. Zelda and Mario have name power, but for how long. Rayman 3 is selling pretty well and I think it's a better game than SMS anyway.

As for the power of object oriented development - JSRF, Panzer Dragoon and GUNVALKYRIE are all top notch games that came out of Smilebit in 11 months. Sales aside, that's pretty amazing.
 
Fast Fourier is the new pseudo of Johnny it seems 8)

I find amusing that the game you base your discussion, Fable, is in the making for years. Not very efficient as an example of the benefits of C coding. It seems ASM games are shorter to made :)

It's pretty sad that Nintendo had to enlist the help of Retro studios to give them a blockbuster for holiday 2002

SMS sold more than Metroid Prime last time I checked.

Sure you have the occasional exception like Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid, but these are getting rare all the time.

quality games are rare, western games are plenty.

Zelda and Mario have name power, but for how long.

Disgression.

Rayman 3 is selling pretty well and I think it's a better game than SMS anyway.

first is not proven albeit likely (good franchise, multi platform, good game, lots of marketing), second is just your opinion.

As for the power of object oriented development - GUNVALKYRIE, Panzer Dragoon and GUNVALKYRIE are all top notch games that came out of Smilebit in 11 months.

I suppose you meant JSRF, GV, and PDO, so a enhanced port of a Dc game, a PC game retargeted on the xbox, and a in the making DC game retargeted to the xbox. I think we are looking at more than 11 months. amazing results, I agree.

Sales aside, that's pretty amazing.

Sales matters only when it supports your opinion.
 
I can only imagine how much ASM was involved with ZoE2. Holy crap that game looks amazing... a wee-too-many slowdowns for my taste though.
A complete digression, but what the heck - do you prefer the game to skip the frames like for example Halo is doing when the framerate gets impossible to keep up? I actually prefer when the motion remains smooth but slower instead of getting jerkier with frame-drops. Especially in Zoe2 it looked pretty cool sometimes as it gave you extra second or so to observe what is going on in all that madness - as if it was intended :p
 
realized that you're banging your head against the wall with PS2 compared to the relative elegance and simplicity of a nicely designed C++ Xbox game, which in fact enables code-reuse.
I guess I better delete all our C++ code since it should never run on PS2 :?
 
marconelly! said:
I can only imagine how much ASM was involved with ZoE2. Holy crap that game looks amazing... a wee-too-many slowdowns for my taste though.
A complete digression, but what the heck - do you prefer the game to skip the frames like for example Halo is doing when the framerate gets impossible to keep up? I actually prefer when the motion remains smooth but slower instead of getting jerkier with frame-drops. Especially in Zoe2 it looked pretty cool sometimes as it gave you extra second or so to observe what is going on in all that madness - as if it was intended :p

I disagree, I'd much prefer for it to skip frames.. especially in a face paced game like ZoE2, the slowdowns just ruin the flow of the game. In anycase, its a technological marvel. Too bad I beat it in 4 hours :(
 
wazoo said:
I suppose you meant JSRF, GV, and PDO, so a enhanced port of a Dc game, a PC game retargeted on the xbox, and a in the making DC game retargeted to the xbox. I think we are looking at more than 11 months. amazing results, I agree.

I think you got some of this very wrong. GUNVALKYRIE, PC game? No, it was originally planned for DC. JSRF is a whole new game from Jet Set Radio. I don't notice any of the same content between the two versions save for a couple of songs (and the JSRF versions are remixed).

And Sonic can clarify this, but I believe that Panzer on Dreamcast was only in the planning stages.
 
I disagree, I'd much prefer for it to skip frames.. especially in a face paced game like ZoE2, the slowdowns just ruin the flow of the game.
Heh, to me, frame skipping ruins the look of the game and, I dunno, it just seems more hacked. But nevermind.

Too bad you didn't played it on Hard dificulty, it's a much better challenge and you'd hardly finish it that quickly.
 
Yes. Wazoo is uninformed on these matters.

It's easier to make linear games with the old techniques. Making games with emergent gameplay like Halo, GTA, and Fable might require something more. I'm not a developer, so I don't know. That's just my opinion.

What is objective fact however, is that Western developers have been tearing up the charts lately.

Top 10 Games of this generation (as of 1/31/03):

GRAND THEFT AUTO:VICE 4,672,060
GRAND THEFT AUTO 3 4,405,718
GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC 2,774,445
MADDEN NFL 2003 2,525,161
MADDEN NFL 2002 1,997,978
HALO 1,902,306
METAL GEAR SOLID 2 1,824,213
TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR3 1,804,758
FINAL FANTASY X 1,526,359
MEDAL HONOR FRONTLINE 1,510,494

Only three Japanese developed titles on the list. If you look up the data for the top 20 it's 14/20 western developed titles, and so on. In other words: The Japanese no longer dominate the US console scene. IMO, at the rate things are going it's only a matter of time before western developers outsell Japanese developers even in the RPG and Racing categories.

Japanese developers seem to have a problem with developing games with emergent gameplay. Everything is extremely linear in games like MGS2 and FFX, whereas there are so many possibilities with games like GTA (which I don't personally like, but agree that there is a lot of freedom in that series) and to a lesser extent Halo (particularly in multi-player).

Deus Ex 2 and Fable are other nice examples of upcoming games with emergent gameplay. Are the Japanese dev teams going to stand up to the plate? I hope so, because I've always loved the artistry of titles like Panzer Dragoon, Final Fantasy, and Zelda. Nevertheless, the gameplay has become stale. I enjoy it, but it could be something a whole lot more and gamers know it. That's why they buy GTA instead...
 
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