Guerrilla's dev team answers questions

[mckmas8808]

I decided to start a thread about what the Guerrilla Games dev team is talking about on another board, since we have our own team here giving their side of programming on the PS3. The following quotes are going to be questions from posters and answers from the devs. After reading please don't start a KZ2 isn't real or PS3 vs. Xbox 360 flame war!

I know you cant give any specifics on PS3 info that Sony hasnt released yet, but i was wondering: Are you creating the online for KZ3 or is this outfit, http://www.gamesindustry.biz/jobs.php?zone_code=EUROPE&action
=view&job_id=22257 ? I was wondering because it would be cool ofr you to be able to keep your mind on the game and let them take care of that for you.

GG dev: Nope, all in-house. London offices are making their own games which will be online on PS3. I can't say much, but I will say that Online is going bleeping great.

Also I just wanted to know if the E3 presentation of Killzone 2 was in real-time or if it was just cg. Because I know a lot of people who say that the video is fake and I really want to prove them wrong.

GG dev:
As for the E3 presentation, it was not running live on Dev Kits, as the final spec dev kits did not exist for E3. It was created to the specs of the PS3 and represents what we feel is achievable on PS3.

1 more thing if i may, Will there be any KeyBoard/Mouse support for the next gen KZ???
That would be great to have the extra accuracy a KB/M allow's

GG dev: Keyboard / Mouse support is a difficult one because of the balancing issues. First, you have to tune the game separately - once for controller and once for keyboard / mouse. Then, you also have the problem of keeping online fair - i.e. not letting the players using keyboard / mouse have an advantage over those using controllers in the same game.
It's a tricky problem - We do realize it is a requested feature, however we are not committing to anything at this time.

Question 1. Do you know how you came to "feel" that was achiveable?
Question 2. If you just looked at theoretical specs, did you take into account that you might not get all of it?
Question 3. Accept for the uber-high polygon count, you also seem to have effects that would not be achievable in realtime, like the hypervoxel smoke (atleast that's what people say you have in the trailer)
Question 4. Have you recieved the final devkits? Do you feel confident about it by now?

GG dev: Answer 1. Our experience as game developers

Answer 2. Yep!
Answer 3. I've seen some amazing effects done real time by not only Guerrilla but other PS3 dev teams. As these teams continue to push what the PS3 is capable of - then we'll see just what is achievable in real-time.

Answer 4. Not allowed to answer that one.

Whats goin on Ferret. I have one for you conserning the vehicles, though I don't believe you can answer it. In the ew game, will there be vehicles in multiplayer? (kind-of like those guys at Zipper did in Socom3)

GG dev: Unfortunately, we can't confirm or deny this at this time. However, this is on the official suggestion list.

How do you feel, personally, about next-gen development? Is it exciting for you as a developer to really unleash what you have always wanted and envisioned?

GG dev: The scale of the whole project has gotten tremendously huge and daunting. The team sizes have grown to such an extend I don't know at least 15 of the people here anymore. During Killzone 1 I knew if someone made a bug in a certain level I could go to the person directly and talk to them about it. I knew immediatly where they sat, what their MSN was and now I don't even know their first names....It is all very exciting and scary at the same time, and the risk-factor for all new games seems to have gone up quite a bit. But the chances for making things that were previously not possible due to hardware limitations is really cool

PS2 had very little HARD-WIRED graphical effects and so they had to implemented via the software route in the Emotion Engine, has this learning curve helped you become more efficiant at coding for architectures like the EE ( i.e MULTIPLE CORE ).

GG dev: Well, for KZ1 we had to code a lot for all the cores in the system (R5900, IOP, VU0 and VU1) and we spent a lot of time making sure the communications between the cores was as fast as it could be.

Now we're working with the Cell chip, which is a whole different ballgame. It's easier in some respect (easier to program for), but it's also a lot more complex, so a lot more cores to keep busy at the same time.

But in the end, yeah, programming a PS2's EE will give you a leg up programming for multi-core architectures, especially the Cell. Hope that answers your question! If you have any more, shoot!

So, what I would really like to know is, how does one go about organizing their objects in C++ to utilize the SPEs as efficiently as possible?...We've heard many times that programming for Cell requires one to "think differently" but by the sounds of some of your earlier comments it really seems that programming on the Cell is not quite as daunting as the rumors would have you believe.....Gabe Newell said in an interview on G4 that Naughty Dog was really far along with multithreaded programming. Now that you guys are a part of Sony, have you found it a good experience working with the Devs over at Naughty Dog?

GG dev: More of these low-level questions on the board. Yeesh, are you guys coders, or what?!? I think I have to err on the side of caution here, NDA's and confidentiality with regards to Cell are still quite tricky. Cell is definitively different from anything else. With parallelism people often think 'multithreading'. But how good will it be, running threads on tiny CPU's like the SPU's, really? It works, but it won't be optimal. If you think of it more as a network of small computers sending each other packets of data, it all starts to make a lot more sense.

We've had some good contact with the devs in Europe off late and we're planning gettothers(personal comment: Ninja Theory maybe? DeanoC or nAo do you know about this?). We haven't had a lot of time yet to meet up with the US devs, but that's underway too. It's all pretty new to us too, we were close to Sony before, but never really part of the group. It's definitely cool being part of the gang, Sony has some really talented people working for them.

How do you feel about the Killzone PSP title you have been developing?

GG dev: Well, without getting in trouble - I can say that the PSP title is something I'm really excited to be working with the team on. Uh, don't know how much else I can say... Really, really excited!

One aspect of the Cell (and your game put me on to this with that E3 demo) that really interests me is physics calculations. One thing I'd like work with when I get my PS3 and a GCC compiler or two is some dual precision physics formulas. I wonder if it would be possible to run or store data on another SPE and program a routine for one SPE to reference a location on another SPE? That EIB looks like it has bandwidth to spare for such an operation, but I bet it would have to be massively complex. Real early on when the PS3 was announced with the Cell BE is that SPEs could run applications independantly or in synchronization somehow.

GG dev: I can't tell you much more than you can deduce from the public specs from IBM, but I think you're on the right track. No SPE in the Cell is a slave to the system, so they can all move data around on the EIB. It would be wasteful for one SPE to use memory of another (why would you? each SPE has its own), but for physics you could have different SPEs doing different parts of the world - in parallel. Or you could have a few SPEs doing collision detection and others doing collision response.

Does that make sense?

On the massively parallel thing, there are actually developments in that direction. IBM has got something in development, called Octopiler (http://www.research.ibm.com/cellcompiler/compiler.htm), but I have not taken a look at it myself yet. But if you're on the case, you might want to check it out.

There's also loads of nice articles floating around on the net off late (on Gamasutra and other game-dev sites) about parallel programming, although most of the tend to be on threaded programming and not specifically Cell.

posted on the Playstation website and some other gaming job websites leads me to believe that Sony is actually going to create a better, more cohesive online service

GG dev: I'm am so treading on the line of NDA here. Um... we as developers are very aware of the features Xbox has for it's online service, and many of these features are things we believe are neccessary for our games. We do 1st party games for Sony, but there are lots of 3rd party developers as well - and these are the folks that Sony Computer Entertainment as a whole has to work with to create any kind of platform-wide system like Xbox has.
We don't have much insight into what discussions take place with 3rd party developers and publishers - but I can at least say that the SCE World Wide Studios (of which we are a part) is very committed to providing the necessary online features in our future games. We realize the direction online gaming is going, and we very much want to provide these features in our games. How this will come about is not something we can talk about.
Unfortunately, that's as much as I can say without seriously getting in trouble.

And that's it (so far). I will keep posting what the Guerrilla devs say about Killzone for the PSP and/or PS3, PS3 game development, and the video game industry as a whole. Again I love the Ninja Theory guys and want them to keep posting here, but I just wanted to show the love to Guerrilla too, because if it was up to B3D you would think Guerrilla doesn't talk about their videogames.

So please comment on anything that sounds relevent to you about Killzone 2 or PS3 game development. Again please don't start a KZ2 isn't real or PS3 vs. Xbox 360 flame war!

Thanks for your time.

 

[!eVo!-X Ant UK]

1 more thing if i may, Will there be any KeyBoard/Mouse support for the next gen KZ???
That would be great to have the extra accuracy a KB/M allow's

That was my question

As was this one

PS2 had very little HARD-WIRED graphical effects and so they had to implemented via the software route in the Emotion Engine, has this learning curve helped you become more efficiant at coding for architectures like the EE ( i.e MULTIPLE CORE ).

 

[mckmas8808]

That was my question

Oh really. Ask more good questions like that then. What else can you think of?

 

[!eVo!-X Ant UK]

This is another set of questions i also asked.

1. The EE inside PS2 was used primary as a CPU, But wtih Cell it has the ability to render graphics aswel along side RSX. Does this provide any extra problems, with cache and data confliction between the two chips??

2. Is there anything you wish that the next generation PS3 had that it does'nt ( besides more power )

3. Are you guys going to be pushing the whole Cell and RSX rendering relationship, or are you going to wait till PS3 is further in its life cycle??

4. What do think of Developers that take the easy way out and use third party Dev software instead of creating there own??Do you guys plan on enableing other dev's to use your software??

And here is the response i got :

Okay, here goes (just before I shoot off to work today):

1. Actually, the EE on the PS2 had vector units we *had* to use for graphics, with Cell you can write to the RSX from any part of Cell, but you don't have to. It's more of an option, so that's cool, it makes it easier. Also, cache and DMA management on the PS2 was very difficult and they've taken another look at that with Cell and made it easier (i.e. Cell does a lot for you that you had to do manually before).

Btw, that's a really low-level question for a forum-post, good one

2. There's always wishes, where would we be if we were satisfied.. But no, nothing that springs to mind immediately that's lacking. Of course, MORE and FASTER always sounds good to me.

3. We'll sure be maxing out the RSX and be pushing a number of SPU's in succession, but it all depends a bit. Sorry, have to be a bit vague there.

4. Oh, that makes perfect sense for a lot of people, but it's not a thing for Killzone (we like to have something tailored exactly to our needs). We have no plans of licensing our engine out, but one of the cool things about us being acquired by Sony and the World Wide Studios thing is that we can now work much more closely with other 1st party Sony studios (and there are some *really* good Sony studios!).

 

[mckmas8808]

Now taking what we hear here and combining what GG is saying we can get a closer idea of what working on the PS3 is like. Great!

im assuming this means that now guerilla games will have more funding and money to put into the production of killzone and be able to work closer with other 1st aprty developers like mad dog to help out with the game to make it even better

GG dev: Well, now that Guerrilla is part of SCE 1st party, it definitely becomes easier to work closely.

Hopefully Heavenly Sword gets to be a 2 ot 3 million unit seller so Ninja Theory can become a SCE 1st party dev (if they wanted to).

 

[DeanoC]

We've had some good contact with the devs in Europe off late and we're planning gettothers(personal comment: Ninja Theory maybe? DeanoC or nAo do you know about this?). We haven't had a lot of time yet to meet up with the US devs, but that's underway too. It's all pretty new to us too, we were close to Sony before, but never really part of the group. It's definitely cool being part of the gang, Sony has some really talented people working for them.

Well as Lead Programmer, would be a bit scary if I didn't ;-) We've met up with Guerilla a few times, last time was when we had Guerilla over at the office a few months ago. We (all SCEE 1st parties and NT) are all getting together soon IIRC

Guerilla and NT have direct contact and we also share forums etc. We should probably use them more than we do, buts its fairly hard on a day to day basis. One of the things I've got to sort out... We both work very closely with ATG (DeanA's group) and so we get to see posts made by all users of ATGs libraries (so I see posts by Guerilla, SCEE game teams etc.). All one big happy family, except we (NT) aren't actually family, more just some lodger who won't leave


NT get treated pretty much as a first party, only real difference is that occaniously Phil has to confirm whether we can attend or get access to some stuff. Which makes sense as we aren't Sony...

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Succession

pushing a number of SPU's in succession

Is this indication that for KZ2 graphics task some SPEs have sequence type use not parallel?

 

[!eVo!-X Ant UK]

Is this indication that for KZ2 graphics task some SPEs have sequence type use not parallel?

I'll ask them.

 

[BlueTsunami]

I'll ask them.

Your gonna make them sweat (if they aren't already)

 

[mckmas8808]

Well as Lead Programmer, would be a bit scary if I didn't ;-) We've met up with Guerilla a few times, last time was when we had Guerilla over at the office a few months ago. We (all SCEE 1st parties and NT) are all getting together soon IIRC

Guerilla and NT have direct contact and we also share forums etc. We should probably use them more than we do, buts its fairly hard on a day to day basis. One of the things I've got to sort out... We both work very closely with ATG (DeanA's group) and so we get to see posts made by all users of ATGs libraries (so I see posts by Guerilla, SCEE game teams etc.). All one big happy family, except we (NT) aren't actually family, more just some lodger who won't leave


NT get treated pretty much as a first party, only real difference is that occaniously Phil has to confirm whether we can attend or get access to some stuff. Which makes sense as we aren't Sony...

Thanks for the confrimation. Question? So if you guys get treated (pretty much as first party as you say) so well does this mean you guys will or can in the future be able to use engine assests or actually code from SCEWWS studios like Naughty Dog or Guerrilla Games directly or do they tell you how it can possibly be done and you guys try to mimic it?

 

[DeanoC]

Thanks for the confrimation. Question? So if you guys get treated (pretty much as first party as you say) so well does this mean you guys will or can in the future be able to use engine assests or actually code from SCEWWS studios like Naughty Dog or Guerrilla Games directly or do they tell you how it can possibly be done and you guys try to mimic it?

Not sure if I should be insulted... Isn't that an assumption that everybody else is better than us? Ever consider it might be the other way

We use SCEE ATG tech a fair bit, and a few bits of various other SCEx tech. There is internal system for sharing and supporting different bits and peices.

But we all have very different ways of doing things or we are making very different types of games. We chatted about HDR and lighting systems with the Guerrilla guys when they were over and we couldn't share that much as we have such radically different requirements and usage models.

 

[mckmas8808]

Not sure if I should be insulted... Isn't that an assumption that everybody else is better than us? Ever consider it might be the other way

We use SCEE ATG tech a fair bit, and a few bits of various other SCEx tech. There is internal system for sharing and supporting different bits and peices.

But we all have very different ways of doing things or we are making very different types of games. We chatted about HDR and lighting systems with the Guerrilla guys when they were over and we couldn't share that much as we have such radically different requirements and usage models.

My bad DeanoC I swear I was thinking about putting a "not to your software tech is bad" quote in there. I was so excited that I hit the darn submit button to fast and never thought to edit. But damn it's good to see all of you guys using each others technology.

*So I guess this whole time you know or knew what is and can be possible as far as KZ2 is concerned (don't respond to this statement). Well good luck and hope you guys will be announcing that HS will be sold during the launch window during the Feburary Playstation event.




*Please don't answer or respond to the following statements as they will be spead across the internets for all fangirls and boys to use as flamebait.

Hey DeanoC would you and the others at Ninja Theory ever consider going 1st party if asked? I ask because it seems like if you did you guys could receive that little extra plus of funding/Sony pull/marketing to push your ideas and games.

 

[Farid]

I ask because it seems like if you did you guys could receive that little extra plus of funding/Sony pull/marketing to push your ideas and games.

SCEE (Now SCEWWS) is already producing and publishing their game.
They have full support, financially and technically. They can keep their independence and have a close relationship with SCEWWS, like Insomniac Games, Level 5 or Evolution Studios do.

 

[mckmas8808]

Respectfully asking

SCEE (Now SCEWWS) is already producing and publishing their game.
They have full support, financially and technically. They can keep their independence and have a close relationship with SCEWWS, like Insomniac Games, Level 5 or Evolution Studios do.

So what's the point in being a 1st party team then? It seems like Guerrilla Games were happy when they were first announced.

 

[typoEDR]

So what's the point in being a 1st party team then? It seems like Guerrilla Games were happy when they were first announced.

Now Guerrilla Games can't run away. Ninja Theory can. However, time will tell if they want to or not.

 

[Carl B]

So what's the point in being a 1st party team then? It seems like Guerrilla Games were happy when they were first announced.

Being a first party studio gets you preferential treatment from the relevent company (because you're a part of them) - in this case Sony. First with the dev kits, first with the specs, first for everything. Plus you have a huge warchest to draw upon for approved projects, provided Sony or whoever sees the value.

But like Vysez said there are some independent studios that enjoy a very close working relationship with Sony, MS, whoever - and sort of represent a 'More than third party, but not really first-party' type hybrid.

Maybe this quote from DeanoC though: "We (all SCEE 1st parties and NT) are all getting together soon IIRC," implies they're more of a 'virtual' first party than I even thought.

PS - Those are some decent online hints coming out of that G-dev. At least it provides the hope of some sort of unified online format among first-party devs, and possibly others. Seems that it holds out though the oft-discussed possibility that each company will be creating their own 'network within the network.'

There will obvioulsy be *some* sort of marketplace/hub area for Sony's service though. If PSP is getting something like the new CONNECT, no way PS3 is not.

 

[drpepper]

Thanks for the interview, very insightful responses from the developers and the questions are good to boot!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But like Vysez said there are some independent studios that enjoy a very close working relationship with Sony, MS, whoever - and sort of represent a 'More than third party, but not really first-party' type hybrid.

Isn't that what we term second party?

Regards cooperation, I thought there were Sony+MS+Ninty developer networks anyway. What is a SCEx network providing above and beyond that? Also, how does SCEE, SCEA and SCEJ (or whatever it was) work conceptually within SCEW? Are the regional divisions only referenced as such internally out of habit? Are the resources like SCEE ATG also shared around the US and Asian studios, and likewise you have access to the research of SCEA and SCEJ, or are these resources localised to continental districts and the SCEW partnership is more one of distribution at the moment?

 

[Carl B]

Isn't that what we term second party?

You know, I was going to say second-party but I see the term used so little these days that I just decided against it. It's almost like I'm unsure of it's use now.

 

[DeanoC]

1st party means you've been brought. Guerilla is now a part of Sony.
However that doesn't mean they have access to everything... Most large companies run sub-parts are seperate entities in there own right. So they will likely still work the way they have always worked.

We can if Sony lets us, work as close an any first party, and as Sony (for fairly obvious reasons) want us to do well, we are granted near 1st party status.

To be honest, sometimes not being 1st party is helpful... Sony is a BIG company and like all big companies has its own culture, rules, politics etc. Being outside it all sometimes helps ;-)