GT4 IGN Review up!

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I'm as p**sed as the next person at the apparent lack of progression in the AI department, but thinking about it if you don't know the course you wont know where to brake!

If in the real world if a novice went out with a bunch of racing drivers and broke in the wrong place the real racers would just run into the back of him as they wouldn't expect them to brake there, It's not like racing drivers keep the Highway Code's 2 second rule! Also you only have to watch real racing, if one car makes a mistake and there are others close by they get caught up in the carnage too.

I think more of a problem is the AI's apparent lack of awarness :(
 
If in the real world if a novice went out with a bunch of racing drivers and broke in the wrong place the real racers would just run into the back of him as they wouldn't expect them to brake there,

You don't need novice, I've seen alot of F1s hitting the back of the car in front :)

Godly driver only exist in film or story :)

That said, I don't mind some godly AI driver in GT4. But looking at some player who aren't regular at GT4, they get kinda put off, if they didn't win. So really that kind of godly AI is not a win win situation for GT4. Especially with the amount of races you expect to complete for that game.
 
I don't think the issue is AI in racing games.

I think it's a lack of penalty for collisions, it's just too easy for the player to exploit, why bake at all when you can use the guy infront and run him into the barrier?

On the other hand, players are somewhat unpredictable, and it'd feel unfair if the AI rearends them writing their car off because they braked much earlier than expected. The last racing game I worked on probably had more logic directed at staying out of the way of the player than any other single thing.

Years ago I worked with someone who'd worked on a dog fighting flight sim, they spent a huge amount of engineering effort on the AI, when it went into test, the testers were convinced it was cheating (it wasn't) and they ended up having to dumb it down significantly (so it didn't feel "cheap") before it was shipped. People think they want great AI, but I think for the most part they are looking for a world that reacts to there presence and doesn't appear completely stupid which isn't entirely the same thing.

It's just a difficult problem balancing AI/Reality with gameplay.
 
After so many years of waiting, there's no real improvement to GT3. No. None at all. Sure, they made some fine tuning here and there, loads and loads of cars, and a nice "photo mode". Yippee.

All the aspects that ruined GT3 are still here. Sub-standard AI, no damage, no network play, all of them. Part of me still wants to spend 60 euros for this, but this feels too much like an insult, I cannot humiliate myself by supporting this kind of ripoffing.
 
Good point ERP, never really thought of it like that.

As for using the other cars to bounce round corners, my experience of the previous GT games is that the AI cars get out of corners quite well so inorder to catch them if your not as good as they are you need a power advantage, so you're already 'cheating'.

Personally I like to make my car as close to the AI cars as poss, so when the stupid AI run into me because they don't know I'm passing and I loose momentum and get thrown off line that's what gets me pissed off. I just find it boring if my car is faster than the competition, but i know lots of people who play it like that. These are also the people who get know where near completing the game because it takes time to learn the tracks and the cars.

With the B-Spec points system visible before you start a race in GT4, it looks like it'll be much simpler to make your car just competitive enough :)
 
Ooooh. Ouch! Played some more GT4 and have to revise my impressions a little. Simply put, these graphics are GRAINY!

Honestly, I got up from the couch and tried shaking the sand out of my pants, wondering how it had got there. When I looked down, I found myself standing in a huge pile of pixels!

Really now, this IS PS2 we're talking about, so some jaggies are to be expected. But after seeing screenshot after glorious screenshot on all the review sites - and since not a one of them did anything but gush like schoolgirls about the game's visuals - I really didn't expect this.

Especially after basking in the glory that is Tekken 5 - now THERE'S a great-looking PS2 game!

To sum, GT4 looks like old tech when compared with Project Gotham 2 and (especially) Apex on Xbox. The difference is amazing.
 
Mmm... ten more days until I can get my hands on the full copy. 8)

Can somebody with the game check if you can use a digital camera to act as a flash drive for the Photomode? Thanks! :D
 
jimpo said:
After so many years of waiting, there's no real improvement to GT3. No. None at all. Sure, they made some fine tuning here and there, loads and loads of cars, and a nice "photo mode". Yippee.

:rolleyes:
 
ERP said:
I don't think the issue is AI in racing games.

I think it's a lack of penalty for collisions, it's just too easy for the player to exploit, why bake at all when you can use the guy infront and run him into the barrier?

On the other hand, players are somewhat unpredictable, and it'd feel unfair if the AI rearends them writing their car off because they braked much earlier than expected. The last racing game I worked on probably had more logic directed at staying out of the way of the player than any other single thing.

Years ago I worked with someone who'd worked on a dog fighting flight sim, they spent a huge amount of engineering effort on the AI, when it went into test, the testers were convinced it was cheating (it wasn't) and they ended up having to dumb it down significantly (so it didn't feel "cheap") before it was shipped. People think they want great AI, but I think for the most part they are looking for a world that reacts to there presence and doesn't appear completely stupid which isn't entirely the same thing.

It's just a difficult problem balancing AI/Reality with gameplay.

Well there really should be a AI level adjustment option available. I mean you wouldn't want the AI to be super smart like the kind used on Blue Gene to beat that grandmaster chess guy. :p
 
Kolgar said:
Really now, this IS PS2 we're talking about, so some jaggies are to be expected. But after seeing screenshot after glorious screenshot on all the review sites - and since not a one of them did anything but gush like schoolgirls about the game's visuals - I really didn't expect this.

Not that I don't trust your hands-on impressions, but IMO, Gran Turismo 4 Prologue is already above what Project Gotham and Apex ever offered - and the final GT4 has upped that again with better IQ, so your comments have me pretty confused. May I ask on what kind of display you're playing the game? Afterall, your opinion does seem to reflect a very small minority...

(For the record, I have played GT4p on 100Hz displays and seen them running on Plasmas as well. Odly enough, Rallisport 2 was on the display next to it and from the distance I was standing [the distance I usually play my games from, being aprox. 3 to 4 meters], it looked pretty aweful compared to GT4p)
 
PC-Engine:

Well there really should be a AI level adjustment option available. I mean you wouldn't want the AI to be super smart like the kind used on Blue Gene to beat that grandmaster chess guy.

Given that the cars physics-engine is slightly more complex than your average arcade racer, I can see that a sophisticated advanced AI is a huge challenge on its own. As difficulty increases for the player to manage to keep control of his car under extreme driving conditions, so would AI complexity be an increasing factor (think of all the calculations needed for the AI to determin the best steering force, braking, throttle at a given speed to an unpredictable event and still keep the car on track - and then multiply that times 5 for each AI-based driver).
 
Phil:

I played on a 36" Sony flat-screen WEGA. It's a couple of years old, but still a decent conventional television.

And OK, perhaps I was being slightly overdramatic with the standing-in-a-pile-of pixels thing. But unfortunately, the game does suffer from a noticeable lack of anti-aliasing compared to PGR2 and Apex - again, on my conventional set.

I was really hoping the trademark PS2 shimmering effect would be gone this time. Damn, that's annoying. It really detracts from the grassy, non-road parts of the environment - though the roads themselves suffer a bit from it too.

The roads in Apex in particular look much better, thanks in no small part to the bump mapping that gives them a more believable, textured look.

Apex also does a better job with the environments in general, I feel - at least from what I've seen so far. Some of it is creative direction - Apex was developed as more of an arcade racer, so I imagine its designers had the freedom to be a little more "colorful."

But a lot of it is technical, too. Whether it's jet planes or balloons or animated billboards, the environments in Apex feel more alive, and they certainly benefit from a higher polygon count and more detailed texturing than I've seen in GT4.

Admittedly, the car models look nicer in PGR2 than they do in Apex. Were GT4 to benefit from some antialiasing, its car models may very well surpass those of PGR2 in terms of realism. It's just that those jaggies suspend the suspension of disbelief the developers must have sought so hard to achieve.

At the end of the day, GT4 is a major accomplishment on PS2, and given an HD setup, it may very well knock my socks right off. Given my humble WEGA, however, I think PGR2 and Apex look better at the end of the day.

P.S. For any Yankees out there, I caved in and bought GT4 yesterday due to a CompUSA ad which listed the game for $37.99. Since CompUSA is on the far side of town, I simply took the ad to Best Buy and they matched the price for me. I figured, for forty clams, why not?
 
Well. if the IQ is on par with Gran Turismo Concept and Prologue (though I havent played Prologue), I'll be happy enough.
Concept did look a bit better than GT3, and GT4 is an imporvement from that, and the videos that I've seen of GT4 have convinced me that it looks quite a lot better than GT3 and even Prologue.

I don't quite get why bumpmapping on the road would make it look that much better, especially as in motion the bumpmapping is kinda lost anyway.

I haven't played Apex myself, but again from videos and game played on TV, the environments in Apex look more sparse than GT4 to me :? but maybe it was just the choice of tracks.
Apex and PGR2 do look somehow cleaner, but at the same time they look more cartoony and flat to my eye.
 
Don't know about Apex but I think although it looks sharper etc. PGR2 looks much more computer generated and not real than GT4.
 
rabidrabbit:

Well, it's true what they say about beauty being in the eye of the beholder. We all have our preferences. :)

I never had the pleasure of playing Prologue, and it's been a while since I last played GT3, so I should go back and have a look. It might just prove an eye-opener.

Wish you could have seen Apex in person. Best-looking racing game I've ever seen or played, IMO. Too bad the racing action itself feels so... floaty... or something. But my, she's a looker.

And believe it or not, the bump mapping on display in Apex's roads actually makes quite a nice difference visually. The pavement just looks more convincing, and, 30 fps or no, the more believably textured surface speeds by just as smooth as a baby's bottom.
 
well, to be fair, the doubled framerate would be more noticable on things far away (like passing buildings) rather than road pavement. I only had a brief look at Apex back when it was released in PAL land... admittedly, a very nice racer indeed - much better looking than PGR2 actually IMO, but when comparing it to any GT racer, the framerate does come into play as a big factor for me at least.

It's kind of wicked actually. The tradeoff is usually framerate for better more detailed graphics or vice versa. Despite all this, I'm amazed by the improvement of GT4 over its predecessor, GT3. GT3 was already stunning, but IMO some of the most noticable improvements in GT4 are the backgrounds which are sensational. I mean, not just prerendered backgrounds, but they even made them more real by mapping them onto a 3d surface and gave it some great depth (the Grand Canyon track) or the fact that you do seem to get closer to them.

As said, I can only judge by other users comments (especially Maskrider's) and my own extensive experience in playing Prologue (which quite honestly blew me away - well, the italian track anyway). I guess beauty really lies in the eye of the beholder. :)

One last thing Kolgar:

You said 36" Sony flat-screen WEGA, right? Not too aware of the displays in America and how this would fair with a game such as GT4 that does support progressive (480p) I believe? Given the nature of flatscreens and their fixed pixel resolution, I could imagine that the resolution would have to be stretched to fit your 36" display? If this is the case, couldn't it be that the ratio is somewhat stuffed up that would make it indeed look more pixelated? I know this is quite common on my laptop when I either reduce the resolution from its 1400x1050 to any smaller one (it becomes blury because the fixed pixels can't be scaled). On the other hand, blowing up a 480p resolution image by anything other than in doubles would cause a more blocky image (i.e. 640x480 --> 900 x 675). Another thing to take into account is that most PS2 games don't use 480 pixels height anyway, but more like 448? Maybe this could be the reason why Xbox games would look better and less pixellated in general? Just a thought.
 
Well I have played prologue to death and in my albeit meaningless opinion its nowhere near the graphical quality of PGR2. First up it flickers like mad especially the NY track, It very difficult to pick the corners out (thus the need for flashing lights on each) also sections such as grandstands pop up extremely close to the camera. The lighting looks more natural in prologue for sure, but I can't see what people see in the canyon track. You have a massive rendered background and a track with invisble fencing that doesn't let you drive a metre or two off track.
 
Oops, sorry. I mixed Apex with Forza in my head. I don't really remember what Apex looked like.

And yes, most PS2 games look very very pixellated also on my Huyndai ImageQuest L17T monitor via s-video, haven't really tried that many games on it, but GT3 looked like PSOne game on it, and Ratchet & Clank also looked very grainy. On the other hand, graphically simpler games like Hardware Online Arena look cleaner :?
 
OK, I've just spent the evening with GT3, GT4, and Apex, just to try and narrow down the what's what and who's who of racing game graphics. :p

Let me start by saying that GT3 is still a mighty fine-looking game. The visuals have held up remarkably well, especially by PS2 standards.

The move to GT4 revealed subtle improvements, some of which had to do with art direction. For example, I played Trial Mountain on both games, and GT4 seems to sport newer, more realistic textures on some of the rocks and other objects.

Colors seemed a little less bright and garish as well. For example, grass in GT3 looked overbright and unnatural, whereas in GT4, it had been toned down a bit to look more real.

Unsurprisingly, texture shimmering remained a problem in both games, with some of the grassy areas beyond the road appearing quite grainy. Shimmering was especially apparent on finely detailed objects, such as powerlines and chain-link fences.

Interestingly, most of the signs in both games looked sharp and clear. A few, however, suffered from shimmering, even in GT4. (I'm thinking right now of some that adorned the wall alongside the track - they buzzed and jumped, while the signs above the road and directly in front of me looked solid and clear.)

It's funny, but some of GT4's road surfaces look very nice, while others seem to fall victim to a bit of shimmering. In general, I think they're probably an improvement over GT3.

(And yesterday, I must have posted my impressions after playing for too long on one of the slightly shimmery tracks, because tonight I experienced a variety of raceways, and the majority of them looked quite nice.)

I would have loved to have compared the two games side by side, as it's not nearly so easy drawing comparisons the way I'm doing it. Henceforth and therein, caveat emptor - I'm trying to relay this info with as much accuracy as possible, but between my display and my thirty-five-year-old eyes, I'm not making any promises as to its accuracy. ;)

So then I popped Apex into my Xbox, and sure enough, I think my earlier post was pretty much spot on. The game is quite beautiful, with courses that feature realistic, animated objects (balloons, billboards), lots of pretty textures, and more geometry than GT4 is pushing.

What's more, fences and power lines looked straight and true, with nary a pixel out of place. The antialiasing of this game really makes a difference.

And I'll say it again - the bump-mapped roads really help. As you round a corner and drive into the sun, you really get a sense of texture on the road as the light reflects bumpily off the porous pavement.

A side note about the texturing in Apex. Some objects, like a few bridges I passed under, didn't look very impressive. Just white "concrete" with some bluish strokes to resemble shadowing. But mostly, the textures in Apex are very detailed and realistic. While playing, I got the impression of a beautiful, hand-drawn animation.

The colors were warm and vivid, maybe a tad brighter than realistic, but very easy on the eyes. Lighting was nice, too. The result was improved immersion - I think that overall, Apex suspends disbelief quite well, pulling you into its world and - wonky physics aside - convincing you that you're really there.

As nice as GT4 looks, the texture shimmering takes away from the overall effect; it's a near-constant reminder that you're playing a PS2 game.

But that's the biggest complaint I have with the visuals of GT4. And perhaps I was a little hard on the game in my post yesterday. It's not so much jaggy pixels that hurt the visuals; it's more the buzzing on some of the textures and objects themselves. All in all, it's a great-looking game.

But hey, cut me a break. I'd just spent several hours basking in the visual glory that is Tekken 5 - which is remarkably smooth and sexy - so perhaps the few flaws in GT4 struck me as more jarring than they normally would. :)
 
Guys who are normally in favor of the Xbox have said this looks better than any Xbox game in 1080i mode. Supposedly no stuttering or frame rate drops.

The screenshots which were suppose to be 1080i didn't really look that much sharper than the 480i/p ones. Yet some people claim it looks great.

I will probably rent this since I would rather wait for the online edition (although since it supports LAN play, tunneling software should support this?).
 
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