Gameplay in general, replied to jvd's post

[jvd]

Graphics don't matter , graphics can be great but the game can play like crap.

Nintendo while not allways having the best game play is allways at the very top of the list .

You may have not liked mario sunshine for whatever reason (it was fun , not ground breaking like m64 but fun ) but its gameplay is one of the best for its type of game this generation .

As I said only game play is important . NO matter how pretty or how good a game looks if it doesn't have good gameplay I wont play it and i'm sure that goes for all but fan boys or those who don't know any better

 

[Sonic]

I do agree. Gameplay is important, but also what appeals in a game as well. GTA San Andreas has so much different thigns to do and from everoyne I've talked to who really like it the gameplay is just 10 levels higher than any previous GTA game. I am not fond of the GTA series myself and they are the types of games I pick up for maybe half hour at the most to play. San Andreas is the exact same thing yet many others love it.

 

[jvd]

I don't care for gta at all .


But if it had good gameplay the first time around I don't see why the exact same game with diffrent textures and a diffrent area of the world can't play just as well.

Some people don't need growth , some people just like an idea or what you can do and everything is secondary .

But at the end of the day if the game play isn't at least good gta 3 would have stopped selling with vice city .

 

[Almasy]

I disagree with jvd, graphics do matter, and they matter a lot. What would GT be if the cars in it were so ugly they weren´t even recognizable? What would FF if it didn´t have a nice enough presentation to represent the magnificent artwork SE uses to create them? What would friggin Zelda be if the game looked like cr*p instead of having the cute version of Link WW had?

Graphics are a huge part of the atmosphere, and that serves to draw the player in...and we all know that by combining a great atmosphere with great graphics we get an awesome game (like MGS3), whereas the game would not meet its potential if it was crippled in one aspect or the other. You can discuss how much more important gameplay is, but graphics are a BIG part of gaming, wether Nintendo fans like that is an entirely different thing.

 

[jvd]

What would GT be if the cars in it were so ugly they weren´t even recognizable?

what would it be if all the cars drove like crap ?

I'd rather have a game with ugly cars then a game where all the cars drove the same and they all flew right into walls because the gameplay sucked

What would FF if it didn´t have a nice enough presentation to represent the magnificent artwork SE uses to create them

If they spent more time on the actual games than on the fmv it would be a great game .

What if the game play sucked and you could only use one attack ? How would ff be then ?

What would friggin Zelda be if the game looked like cr*p instead of having the cute version of Link WW had?

What would it be like if the gameplay was so bad that the camera wouldn't follow you right and you'd allways end up jumping to the left


Whats sad is that all the games you mentioned has versions with crappy graphics


Gt is in its 4th version because it played very well on the playstation even though the cars looked fugly .

FF is in its what 14th version because of its gameplay , not its graphics as the games would have died along time ago back on the nes if graphics were treuly important

Zelda is the same way , zelda wasn't good because it had great graphics , its good cause the game play was there adn thats why it was able to get to tihs point .


Graphics aren't important . If they were xbox would be outselling the ps2 . Not the other way around .

 

[Almasy]

Learn to have discussions jvd.

I never said gameplay didn´t matter, ever. I also never said that graphics are THE decisive factor in any given context...so, your entire rebuttal is pointless.

I said graphics are a very important part of a game, serve as a very important tool to very relevant aspects such as atmosphere, and that great graphics heighten the experience. And I stand by it.

 

[JacksBleedingEyes]

Yeah but at the end of the day jvd and Acert there needs to be a balance of all things. Sometimes you get sub par graphics, but better gameplay and viceversa.
Sometimes graphics are part of gameplay other times gameplay is part of graphics (only really can think of Rez)
There needs to be a balance between all elements and that makes games what they truly should be, a temporary escape from reality.

 

[jvd]

I said graphics are a very important part of a game, serve as a very important tool to very relevant aspects such as atmosphere, and that great graphics heighten the experience. And I stand by it.

Everything takes a back seat to gameplay .

Once you have the gameplay then of course two games with everything being equal (gameplay , story line , options , online play ) i will buy the one with the better graphics .

But if the one with the lesser quality graphics has the better gameplay then i will buy that title .

Graphics are fine and its good to increase graphics quality , but a graphics leap with out a gameplay leap is a waste .

Yeah but at the end of the day jvd and Acert there needs to be a balance of all things. Sometimes you get sub par graphics, but better gameplay and viceversa.

People still play ultima online because the gameplay is there , the graphics are horrid at this point in time and there are games with graphics leaps and bounds ahead , but they still play it and buy upgrades to it .

 

[see colon]

the gta series is an awsome example of what jvd is talking about. if you look at the series from a purely technical standpoint they don't really look that great. they have very blury textures, blocky characters, boxy cars, and run at what some would consider an almost substandard framerate (compensated by a bit too much motion blur) in some places, but people love to play them. some people still say the games look great because they have gameplay goggles on.

what would it be if all the cars drove like crap ?

auto motilista

 

[Squeak]

JVD, you can’t really separate surface (technical and esthetical aspects) and substance (the stuff that’s going on between the game and you, emotionally and otherwise) like it’s so popular to do.
Firstly because they are so closely interwoven that they are more like two sides of the same thing (how much enjoyment you get out of the game), and secondly because the aesthetics of a game has a very large part in creating the emotional attachment and atmosphere in it.
Isn’t that what games are about, making us feel involved, and above all inducing emotions in us?

But thats the problem, its only your opnion that other game developers have caught up. In my opinion that gap between Nintendo and most other developers has widened this generation...

I have all 3 consoles, and hated the N64 (Mario 64 and Octerina are crap IMO), hardly a rabid Nintendo fan. But my favorite games this gen are almost all Nintendo, from Luigi's Mansion to Eternal Darkness, Mario Sunshine, Wind Waker, Pokomon Collosium, Mario and Luigi and Donkey Konga.

So if Nintendo have lost there way, I hope they never find it...

I can’t see how anyone can love Wind Waker and Sunshine yet hate Mario 64 and Ocarina. After all there are so many similarities between the games.
I don’t hate Sunshine, I just think it’s mediocre by Nintendos standards.
It’s another thing with Wind Waker, the game is an absolute masterpiece… There’s just some glaring flaws, like the way to long sea travels, the Triforce collection thing and some of the other artificial playtime extenders. But rather that, than being mediocre.
John Ruskin says it better than I can:

And therefore, while in all things that we see, or do,
we are to desire perfection, and strive for it, we are
nevertheless not to set the meaner thing, in its narrow
accomplishment, above the nobler thing, in its mighty
progress; not to esteem smooth minuteness above
shattered majesty; not to prefer mean victory to
honourable defeat; not to lower the level of our aim,
that we may the more surely enjoy the complacency of
success.

 

[oi]

I don't think gameplay takes the upper hand. If the game has great gameplay (which of course is a higly undefined word to start with), but atrocious graphics, I most likely won't buy it. If the game has great graphics and terrible gameplay, I most likely won't buy it. Give me a nice balance, thanks.

Edit: Oh, and the last Nintendo game I found enjoyable was Yoshis Island (not that I've played them all, but none of the newer ones have sparked my interest either).

Edit2: And I'd say that sometimes a good story far outweights both gameplay and graphics, which is what I experienced when I recently finished Planescape: Torment (which sucks in all possible ways, except the cool story and setting)

 

[Kolgar]

Wow, strange thread. We started out talking about Nintendo and now we're headed into the infamous "gameplay vs. graphics" territory.

My point earlier was that Nintendo is no longer the only company that can lay claim to the "gameplay" crown. If you like their style of kid-friendly games, that's great, but these days, there are more developers offering fresher franchises and experiences in packages that appeal to more audiences than just the 8-16 year old or "Nintendo maniac" demographic.

 

[Sonic]

Nintendo never really had the gameplay crown...they were just one of the companies that had a high reputation for gameplay. They still have a high reputation, but that is fading slowly.

SEGA used to be the company with the gameplay and graphics crown. Look what's happened to the. Of course that's not to say it is over for them as a new generation of consoles bring new things.

 

[pc999]

I must agree with jvd, if not I would never play again old games but I do play and I love those games, IMO gfx dont matter too much only if they bring new gameplay feature like Splinter Cell or Halo, but too be honest I think should say that those diference are more because the engine (AI,physics...),for exemple Halo 1 and 2 the 2 looks better but I dont care because it dont change the gp but AI(...) with that I care.

In conclusion:IMO engine matters for (new) gameplay features, no one would play old games and like them.

 

[V3]

Nintendo never really had the gameplay crown...they were just one of the companies that had a high reputation for gameplay. They still have a high reputation, but that is fading slowly.

SEGA used to be the company with the gameplay and graphics crown. Look what's happened to the. Of course that's not to say it is over for them as a new generation of consoles bring new things.

For gameplay Sega, I like most of their arcade games, its a quick thrill, that's probably why I like them, their arcade game isn't Zelda, where you have to sit through hours trying to figure things out. The fun is in your face. And that's what so great about their games IMO. Unfortunately, by the masses these type of games are consider, rental game today.

For graphics Sega wasn't on level playing field, they had Model 3, when everyone was on some 3dfx chip. Now, everyone just caught up to them, their graphics are still great, but so is everyone in the pond.

Nintendo on the other hand always have an advantage with their controller design.

Its just this generation, they didn't do anything revolutionary with their controller (GC controller is like streamlined design of N64 controller), that's why they didn't do as well as previous gen, IMO.

Furthermore, their ideas are easy to copy, which creates problem for them.

 

[GwymWeepa]

I have all 3 consoles, and hated the N64 (Mario 64 and Octerina are crap IMO), hardly a rabid Nintendo fan.

I don't want to seem like a troll,b ut I didn't think it was possible to have such an opinion.

 

[L_i_n_k]

More accurate control needs more accurate impressions of that. Example Its better gameplay vice, to see wind efecting the surroundings. Hear it when its getting stronger or faster. Asuming the gameplay is sophisticated anought for this craphical accuracy to make any real difference in gamemechanics. Generally in games imho, its better compututaional vice in a action game, To allocate your resoursec for better resolution gameplay/physics/Ai models than better resolution images on expence of gameplay. Actual gameplay resolution potential does envolve exponentially throught horsepower ,as do graphics potential. It usually seems this horsepower is harnessed only to elevate display resolution. But really i think devs do want better physics and ai. its just not that easy to make new innovative techniques in 3d gameplay department.

 

[L_i_n_k]

By the way, what do you think were the most innovative gameplay mechanics this gen. these come to my head.

1 - Viewtiful joe, i really thought Wowow about how you well this games gameplay was mastered, becouse i really think this megaman i have been waiting for singce the X2 ,the only game that simple handedly destroyed everything else in its genre.

2 - Rallisport 2, this game is the usual arcade rally, as edge gave it a sixer makes it nothing new in a gameplay department in their book . But the gameplay really is responcive, to me its just incredible how well you can control the car in different cornering sitsuations, i have cryed every time i have playd colin or wrc after this.

 

[L_i_n_k]

And and for the nintendo sitsuation, i think they were miles ahead in gameplay, now they are "only" in the edge. Dragging behind in physics and plot complexity has been the sitsuation as long as i can remember 1-1 and i will take it to my grave .

 

[ChryZ]

After 10 years of being a PlayStation-only gamer, I became a little nostalgic and remembered how much I loved my SNES. I was still not so sure about the GC, but when I found a 250EUR deal at eBay for a NTSC GC with 7 good games, I was all "wtf" and gave it a try. I was very impressed, not so much of the graphics, but the polished gameplay in most 1st/2nd and some 3rd party games. It was quite noticable IMHO. I have no idea, what the trick is, but somehow just controlling the characters or vehicles is fun. Metroid Prime, Wind Waker, Pikmin, F-ZeroGX, etc ... all pure gaming bliss. Just my 2 cents.