Gameplay in general, replied to jvd's post

[Sonic]

This gameplay argument going on for the Gamecube never ceases to amaze me. There's more to a game than just gameplay these days whether it be graphics, story, presentation, immersion, sound and music, or all sorts of different things. What I see from Nintendo with their consoles is a specific lack of anything I'm interested in.

Pikmin is very nice in concept and it does play exceptionally well but I have no interest in it what so ever.

Mario Sunshine was an amazing letdown compared to Mario 64. It does feel like a rehash gone wrong on so many levels.

Wind Waker was all right but it definitely wasn't as good as Ocarina of Time. I am looking forward to the new Zelda game, but that is for different reasons again.

F-Zero X was a good futuristic racer but in reality it doesn't hold up even for a SEGA and Nintendo developed game.

Mario Kart Double Dash was highly enjoying and it is one of the few games on the Cube I like.

I'm tired of the Mario Party series.

All in all I will have to say that both the PS2 and Xbox offer a much wider variety of games that have just as good gameplay if not better than the majority of Gamecube games. IMO, Nintendo is no longer a safe haven for gameplay, it lost that a long time ago. I won't even go into the stale concepts for games that it uses.

 

[mistan]

I dont get whats wrong with Mario Sunshine compared to Mario 64. Its the same thing plus more. :? You go around and jump into a level and play it and then beat it and then you repeat(with a few mini games here and there). If im not mistaken thats exactly what mario 64 did. I thought that Sunshine was a really really really fun game and i think it should be named the sequel to mario 64. The whole water thing was great. I just dont get why.... :? Also, what was wrong with Windwaker? Did it not play like any other Zelda game? The next Zelda game will probably play the same way as Windwaker?(in addition to the horse of course! )*i was talking in general..not directly to you*

Ever try Eternal Darkness? Rebel Strike? RE4? Baten Kaitos? Metroid Series? Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes? (remake but still gc exclusive) Super Smash Bros. Melee ? Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door ? Ikaruga ?

The cube has some great high quality titles..
I personally like the cube.

 

[hovz]

the problem is they have offered NOTHING new over their prequels. the nintendo 64 sequels were entirely new experiences from their prequels. this generation they are CARBON COPY REHASHES with new graphics, and in some cases worse(mario kart dd, zelda). there very few games on the cube that i can say were genuinly fun.

super smash brothers melee(still a fresh concept)
both metroids
those donkey kong platform bongo games look rly fun, but i no longer have a cube to play as all my friends sold theirs
monkey ball was great

sure games like zelda and mario sunshine werent bad games, they had entertainment value, but they werent great and they rly felt devoid of the nintendo touch.

its so hard to think of geuninly great games for the cube. nintendo 64 its hard not to fill up a page.

 

[Sonic]

There are exceptions to the rule such as Metroid, which both of them were very good. They are not up to the standards of the Halo series.

Resident Evil 4 will be a purchase but again this is another title that will be on PS2 so I don't see how that matters.

Ikaruga was a port.

Paper Mario does not interest me.

Eternal Darkness was ok.

Is Rebel Strike the first or second game in the series from Factor 5? If it is the first then it is very good, if it is the second then I highly regard it as one of the most repetitive and useless sequels in history. The on foot levels were not to my liking.

I played Super Smash Brothers Melee, good game and at least 100+ hours with multiplayer gaming.

I just don't see anything on the Cube that the PS2 or Xbox do not already offer. I do see a lot missing also. Nintendo itself (the company) does not interest me from a games standpoint any more than EA does.

 

[Tagrineth]

There are exceptions to the rule such as Metroid, which both of them were very good. They are not up to the standards of the Halo series.

And of course, Zelda will never compare to Gran Turismo either...

invalid comparison. :|

Is Rebel Strike the first or second game in the series from Factor 5? If it is the first then it is very good, if it is the second then I highly regard it as one of the most repetitive and useless sequels in history. The on foot levels were not to my liking.

It's the third - it says so on the box.

 

[Acert93]

There are exceptions to the rule such as Metroid, which both of them were very good. They are not up to the standards of the Halo series.

Your comment about the Halo series is very subjective. e.g. Who says Metroid is not up to the standards of the Halo series? If you look at Gamerankings.com the average Main Review gave Metriod a 96.5% and Halo had a 95.7% (overall score had about the same gap of 95.5% to 94.6%). So in geneal critics thought that MP was better than Halo. So, would it be fair for me to say the Halo series does not live up to the MP series? You obviously would disagree with that!

The point is games are an individual taste and what you want/expect out of a game with affect your perception of the game. e.g. I like online games so Halo has added value to me over Metriod. But, this is a big but, I am not all gamers. I wont say that MP does not live up to the Halo standard--because this is not only subjective, but a broad survey of game critics actually disagrees. What is happening is anyone can slam a product because they personally do not like that. And that works great... on the play ground.

This is why this discussion wont go far--it is totally subjective. Gamer game tastes are affected by their like/dislike of many factors. To sit here and say one taste is better than another is kind of pointless. Many gamers want cinematic experiences; while many other gamers want epic stories; while still yet many other games want novel gameplay and puzzels. And there will be gamers who want all three and others who could give a rip about some of this. And then the fact is there are ALWAYS gamers who like Deer Hunter or Myst or the Sims. And the fact many EA games do very well with a mish mash that just seems to hit the right cord with many casual gamers.

So while it is fair to say "I do not like this" or "I do like this" in the end it is kind of pointless. Like you said there is more to a game than just gameplay--but the focus of the gamer will affect ones perception of those aspects. I could care less about some lame story, cheesy voice overs--yet a lot of gamers want this. I wont defraud them of that. There is enough room for games for everyone.

Just remember when you dismiss a title because you do not like it (e.g. I am not a RE fan at all) that does not mean it is not a good game or compare. Looking at how other people felt about the game is just as important when forming an opinion about a product.

 

[JacksBleedingEyes]

Sonic your post is too subjective and to be honest sometimes your opinions are just plain wrong. They might be yours but it doesnt mean your not wrong.

Saying the monalisa is a bad painting doesn't so much reflect Leonardos ability as a painter as yours as a judge.

 

[London Geezer]

Sonic your post is too subjective and to be honest sometimes your opinions are just plain wrong. They might be yours but it doesnt mean your not wrong.

How can a personal opinion or preference be wrong?
I'm not saying i agree with what Sonic said, but just for the sake of argument, who are you to tell him that if he doesn't like something he's wrong? :|

I'm not sure what the point of opening this thread was (well, he just can cause he's a mod but anyway), but if he's interested in something and not something else, good for him, he's not wrong.

 

[a688]

Sonic your post is too subjective and to be honest sometimes your opinions are just plain wrong. They might be yours but it doesnt mean your not wrong.

Saying the monalisa is a bad painting doesn't so much reflect Leonardos ability as a painter as yours as a judge.

lol, calling somebody's opinion wrong

 

[digitalwanderer]

How can a personal opinion or preference be wrong?
I'm not saying i agree with what Sonic said, but just for the sake of argument, who are you to tell him that if he doesn't like something he's wrong? :|

I'm not sure what the point of opening this thread was (well, he just can cause he's a mod but anyway), but if he's interested in something and not something else, good for him, he's not wrong.

That is logical and the way things work in the real world LB, but you forget we're in the Console Forum right now and the laws of the universe don't apply the same in here apparently. :?

 

[London Geezer]

That is logical and the way things work in the real world LB, but you forget we're in the Console Forum right now and the laws of the universe don't apply the same in here apparently. :?

Yeah, u'd think i'd have learned that by now...

 

[digitalwanderer]

Yup. Besides, GC is the only one that plays "Kirby's Air Ride" so it's obviously the only choice.




(Sorry, my son & daughter are home sick and are alternating 'tween Kirby and SSBM on the GC with some new 20% smaller controllers for lil kids we picked up this weekend and I'm running a bit of a silly 'tude...)

 

[London Geezer]

Yup. Besides, GC is the only one that plays "Kirby's Air Ride" so it's obviously the only choice.




(Sorry, my son & daughter are home sick and are alternating 'tween Kirby and SSBM on the GC with some new 20% smaller controllers for lil kids we picked up this weekend and I'm running a bit of a silly 'tude...)

You're wrong.

 

[digitalwanderer]

You're wrong.

I am not, besides you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.

 

[Sonic]

This thread was opened to deter me and jvd going at it in another thread.

Some may view my opinions as wrong and that is ok. I'm not worried about what others think, I form my opinions from my experiences with the games that I've played. I will judge a system based upon the experiences I've had with it.

Acert93, your post was very excellent and I am glad you replied. I sometimes forget that gaming is more of a personal taste. I like the variety of games thta are out on PS2 and Xbox. My little bro does love the Gamecube because there are games on it he really loves. He may only be a 9 year old but he can whoop my ass in Soul Calibur 2.

JacksBleedingEyes, I will state my opinions as I see fit. I'm not saying they are right or wrong, just how I view them. How are your eyes better than anyone else's on the board? I judge games just like everyone else does. Everytime a game is played it is being judged in some sort of way. There are many people who share my opinions, does that mean they are "just plain wrong?"

 

[Squeak]

I dont get whats wrong with Mario Sunshine compared to Mario 64. Its the same thing plus more. :? You go around and jump into a level and play it and then beat it and then you repeat(with a few mini games here and there). If im not mistaken thats exactly what mario 64 did. I thought that Sunshine was a really really really fun game and i think it should be named the sequel to mario 64.

If you can't see what differentiates 64 from Sunshine, and why the former is clearly superior to the latter, then you didn't get what was so good about Mario 64 in the first place.

Sunshine is just to large degree lacking that certain, hard to quantify, something. The same something the new Star Wars episodes lacks compared to the old ones.
Call it a sense of adventure, call it the feel able urge in the creators (as opposed to just mere desire) to make something really truly good.

 

[Kolgar]

I agree wholeheartedly with Sonic's sentiment. It seems that whenever someone levels a criticism of Nintendo - however valid - its fans unload with a chorus of, "But it's about the GAMEPLAY!"

Sure, that's one aspect of gaming, and a very important one. But the fact is, Nintendo just doesn't have a lock on this particular facet anymore. It's not like the 80s and 90s where Shigeru Miyamoto was hailed as one of but a very small handful of game-design geniuses.

Today, we have loads of development talent creating games for an array of companies. The playfield has definitely leveled out.

Which brings me to Sonic's second point: that he finds few of Nintendo's offerings appealing. I can understand this easily. As I've said before, Nintendo's portfolio is dominated by cute, colorful, cartoon-style games. In the overall videogame universe, that equates to a pretty narrow niche. If you don't like that style of game, you're not going to find a lot to like from Nintendo.

This all seems pretty self-evident to me, yet at nearly every gaming board I visit, I find rabid, die-hard Nintendo fans clinging to the "gameplay! gameplay!" mantra and refusing to acknowledge that other developers have caught up to, and in some cases, surpassed, Nintendo as game designers.

I personally find it frustrating, because it seems to me that they're just regurgitating Nintendo's own PR line about how the market is in dire straits and there's no new innovation anymore. Which is nothing but boolsheet - a laughably transparent attempt to convince people that the company is still at least relevant - because we sure as hell all know they're not nearly as dominant as they once were.

Then again, it's hard to watch your favorite game company lose its way. Or in Nintendo's case, simply not keep up with the times.

 

[DeanoC]

This all seems pretty self-evident to me, yet at nearly every gaming board I visit, I find rabid, die-hard Nintendo fans clinging to the "gameplay! gameplay!" mantra and refusing to acknowledge that other developers have caught up to, and in some cases, surpassed, Nintendo as game designers.

But thats the problem, its only your opnion that other game developers have caught up. In my opinion that gap between Nintendo and most other developers has widened this generation...

I have all 3 consoles, and hated the N64 (Mario 64 and Octerina are crap IMO), hardly a rabid Nintendo fan. But my favorite games this gen are almost all Nintendo, from Luigi's Mansion to Eternal Darkness, Mario Sunshine, Wind Waker, Pokomon Collosium, Mario and Luigi and Donkey Konga.

So if Nintendo have lost there way, I hope they never find it...

 

[StefanS]

But thats the problem, its only your opnion that other game developers have caught up. In my opinion that gap between Nintendo and most other developers has widened this generation...

I have all 3 consoles, and hated the N64 (Mario 64 and Octerina are crap IMO), hardly a rabid Nintendo fan. But my favorite games this gen are almost all Nintendo, from Luigi's Mansion to Eternal Darkness, Mario Sunshine, Wind Waker, Pokomon Collosium, Mario and Luigi and Donkey Konga.

So if Nintendo have lost there way, I hope they never find it...

While I won't conclude that the gap has widened, I can agree to some of your points:
In my humble opinion WindWaker is definitely the best Zelda yet: Concisive art direction and well developed incorporation of "new" ideas. Changing the wind to solve puzzles was really exciting, but more important it created an immersive environment which really drew the player into the "fantasy". Its little intricate details like Link turning his eyes to focus attention on objects or the wide-opened eyes in the face of danger merged art direction with game play. (I must say I am quite thrilled to see how horseback riding will add new ideas to the upcoming LOZ...)
As for Mario Sunshine, it didn't innovate like Mario64. However it never aspired to be the best thing since sliced bread. It gradually expanded on the proven formula and added some nice new aspects like the water-jet. In my opinion it is better than Mario64. To fairly assess it one should try the old Mario64 before giving it a try, as nostalgia will always make Mario64 seem a lot better.
Eternal Darkness, to be fair, is a former 2nd party title and Sonic's post referred to first party titles, if I am correct. (Though I have to say it was one of the most atmospheric titles this gen).
Mario and Luigi is a GBA game - in my opinion the best one around - and Sonic's post was about the GC library.

Sonic, frankly you're being a little bit unfair, as titles that didn't interest you not necessarily are boring to others. Dismissing Paper Mario or Pikmin right at the beginning as uninteresting doesn't leave very much room for discussion, as it is just a matter of taste. If you could add more to this, please do so. (E.g.: bad graphics, bad whatever, etc...)

As for Metroid, I personally didn't enjoy it as much as some other Ninty games in my library. I am somewhat unable to put my finger on the reason why it didn't catch me. WARNING, that was my personal opinion, do not discuss

Back to the widening gap: Almost as good as WindWaker was Beyond Good & Evil, which incorporated lots of nice ideas and diverse game elements (Stealth, etc...). Which leads me to my view on this topic, I actually found that other designers are getting close to the quality of the first profile Nintendo titles.

 

[Sonic]

I do not feel I am being unfair. It is not my fault if a game does not interest me or bores me to a point where I can no longer force myself to play it. I know these things are subjective and that may seem unfair. Like Acert said, it does all comedown to personal taste.