Gamecube Under-developed ??

I also think that if the effort spent programming some of the better example of the PS2's power were spent on Gamecube, it could top the best of the Xbox. If it was spent on the Xbox, we would see some very nice things.
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Well, that's why you are seeing stuff like RS3 or Halo 2 respectively. Those people are certainly putting some amazing effort there.
 
akira888

Pixel shader and TEV are both just names for programmable colour combiners. They're both pretty much the same thing.

ERP posted some very good info on TEV in this thread:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1603&highlight=tev

The major difference is that NV2A does all of it's texture reads first, so you can't do a deffered read based on a calculated result (unless it's one of the calculations supported by the texture stage) without resorting to multipass.
In the TEV texture fetches are interleaved with the combiner operations(though not totally freely), so you can theoretically do arbitrary deffered lookups.
However, in most ways flippers texture lookups are more limited as are it's combiners flexibility.
IMO Flipper probably has the better theoretic approach, with the downside of some potential texture cache performance issues.

Realistically there are operations you can do on NV2A that youy can't on Flipper and viceversa.
Click to expand...

The TEV and "pixel shaders" are basically cute acronyms for what used to be called color combiners. The TEV also incorporates the Texture reading part of the pipeline.

A color combiner is in general implemented as a single logic op, in NVidia's case thats public (register combiner docs) and is of the form
A op1 B op2 C op1 D
where op1 is either Dot Product or multiply, op2 is either add or select.
As you can see by repeating this multiple times with some register manipulation between stages you can do most basic math. Pixel shaders just provide a simple consistent interface to this (and other vendors implementations).

The TEV uses a different basic combine operation which is a little more limited. However since the Texture reads can be interleaved with the combiner operations it allows you to do things that would require multipass render on NV2X.

So as an example
on NV2X I have to write


Texture Read
Texture Read
.
.

Combiner Op
Combiner Op
Combiner Op
Combiner Op
.
.
.

On Flipper I can write

Texture Read
Combiner Op
Combiner Op
Texture Read
Combiner Op
Combiner Op
Texture Read
Combiner Op
Combiner Op
.
.
.

I guess the easiest explanation is that Flipper has simpler units for combining and reading textures, but allows more complex arrangements of the units.
So if one of the texture reads is dependant on a previous combiner Op and you can't squeeze the ops into the texture addressing instructions the NV2X would require multipass to do the same thing.
Click to expand...

There's some more info in that thread I think, so check it out.
 
If Nintendo isn't pushing their own system, why do they expect other developers to do the same?

Look at this ridiculous release list for the rest of 2003:

http://www.gamerfeed.com/index.php?story=3865

There's almost nothing on it.

Sure, there's still the new Star Wars shooter, Twin Snakes, and F-Zero from third parties, but the Gamecube lineup is looking thinner than ever right now.

It's made worse by the fact that the only game worth getting so far this year for the Cube was Zelda.
 
Thanks Teasy. Strange though, in an age where so many people buy HW units based on buzzwords that Nintendo woundn't claim this ability more often. Then again their marketing to the mass public has been very bad for a long time, at least 95 or so.
 
What about Viewtiful Joe? I'm also really looking forward to Killer 7 and RE4 next year. To be completely frank, as someone who doesn't have a cube, there's quite a few existing and upcoming titles on it that really pique my interest. Probably more than I'm looking forward on the Xbox (although I already own few games for Xbox that interest me) I like the unusual, quirky games that GC is having or is getting soon.
 
Luigi's Mansion, PIKMIN (!!), Rogue Leader, Super Smash Bors. Melee, Super Mario Sunshine, Starfox Adventures, Metroïd Prime (a bit overrated), Eternal Darkness (even more overrated), Zelda Collector (3 games in one), Resident Evil.

Those are the games I own, and I like PIKMIN the most, Zelda comes second, luigi and mario come third, then Starfox, SSBM, a bit above Eternal Darkness and Resident Evil.


I'm not as happy with my NGC as I was with my DC...
It lacks a Grandia 2 RPG.
(Eternal Arcadia contains far too many random battles to be fun, but the story is good...)

Now I'm wayyyy off topic... :rolleyes:
 
If Nintendo isn't pushing their own system, why do they expect other developers to do the same?
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Nintendo may not have pushed the system to its limits but they've put out some great looking games. Zelda looks absolutely beautiful in lots of area's and Mario Sunshine has some wonderful water effects (pixel shading going on there I think). There's also games Nintendo were involved in like Eternal Darkness, Wave Race, and especially Metroid Prime and F-Zero GX.

Sure, there's still the new Star Wars shooter, Twin Snakes, and F-Zero from third parties, but the Gamecube lineup is looking thinner than ever right now.
Click to expand...

Here's a list of some of the games I can think of coming to GC this year.

Mario Golf
Rally Championship
F-Zero GX
Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Chaos Bleeds (yep I am looking forward to this game :))
Soul Calibur II
WWE WrestleMania XIX
True Crime: Streets of L.A.
Star Wars: Rebel Strike
Harvest Moon: A Wonderful Life
Viewtiful Joe
XIII
Medal of Honor: Rising Sun
Pikmin 2
The Suffering
1080 Avalanche
Need for Speed Underground
Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes
Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time
Beyond Good & Evil
Mario Kart: Double Dash
GT Cube
Geist

Doesn't seem to bad to me.
 
akira888

Thanks Teasy. Strange though, in an age where so many people buy HW units based on buzzwords that Nintendo woundn't claim this ability more often.
Click to expand...

Yeah Nintendo certainly are strange :) For instance they gave out estimated polygon numbers of 6-12 million per second for GC. Factor 5's GC launch title used 15 million per second with loads of high res textures and bump mapping, and there next game is set to go even higher. So why didn't Nintendo give a much higher estimate if its quite obviously possible? The reason is.. Nintendo are wierd :)

Ingenu

Eternal Darkness (even more overrated)
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IMO its underated :)
 
Teasy said:
Here's a list of some of the games I can think of coming to GC this year.
Click to expand...
Looking past the crappiness of some of the titles you mention, and without agreeing with Johnny Awesome who is a troll and should be banned, I'd like to offer a few corrections.

> Rainbow Six 3

Xbox exclusive for 2003. M$ needed a title to bolster its weak 2003 lineup after having delayed nearly everything Xbox fanboys had to look forward to and who better to help them out than the company who saved their asses last Christmas.

> Camelot RPG

Not coming out this year. Hasn't even been announced yet.

> Dead Phoenix

Next year if at all.

> Enclave II

The port of the first one hasn't even come out yet.

> Geist

Doesn't have a date yet. Probably coming out next year.
 
cybamerc

One persons peice of crap is another persons gem :) I just put down games that I remember being interested in when I heard about them. As well as another few that I happened to remember off the top of my head, just for the sake of variety :)

Thanks for the corrections though. I'll remove some of the games you mentioned from the list. I'm keeping Giest in though because there's still a chance of it coming out this year.
 
Dates are probably a little off
<shrug>

July 28, 2003 Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour Nintendo Sports

August 25, 2003 F-Zero GX Nintendo Racing Pre-Order

September 29, 2003 1080° Avalanche Nintendo Sports Pre-Order

October 13, 2003 Kirby Air Ride Nintendo Racing

October 27, 2003 Pikmin 2 Nintendo Strategy Pre-Order

December 1, 2003 Mario Kart: Double Dash!! Nintendo Racing

Looks pretty good so far.......................

=========================================
Third Party is looking pretty damn good as well.

August 27, 2003 Soul Calibur II Namco Fighting Pre-Order

September 10, 2003 P.N.03 Capcom Entertainment Action Pre-Order

September 23, 2003 Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg Sega Platformer Pre-Order

September 23, 2003 Star Wars Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike

September 24, 2003 Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy THQ Action

October 6, 2003 Harvest Moon: A Wonderful Life Natsume RPG

October 7, 2003 Viewtiful Joe Capcom Entertainment Fighting

October 8, 2003 Pitfall Harry Activision Action Pre-Order

October 21, 2003 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Konami Fighting

November 3, 2003 Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles Nintendo Action

November 4, 2003 Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes Konami Action

November 4, 2003 Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time Ubi Soft
 
I just have to add that I played P.N.03's demo, and the game feels very stiff and awkward to me. I won't be playing any more of it if I have a choice.
 
(Eternal Arcadia contains far too many random battles to be fun, but the story is good...)
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Supposendly, the GameCube version had that toned down, but compared to some rpgs, it wasn't so bad. Most 2d rpgs were worse with their random encounters.

BTW, what would an example of where gamecube would have an example in pixel shading? I can't really think of any, except maybe splinter cell, but that is a complete and total guess and I'm not even sure if it uses pixel shading.(what are the lighting effects considered? Is anything dynamic even lit?)

And nintendo may not say they have pixel shaders because they want to differentiate themselves from the other companies, rather than look like they're following them. Besides, do you think pixel shading is a selling word to nintendo's targetted audience? Nintendo basically tries to avoid specs whenever possible, and remains very protective of its hardware.
 
I think that most people don't give EAD releases the credit they deserve. Both Sunshine and Wind Waker featured a veritable plethora of advanced effects.
Both games are among the best looking games out to date. I would call them tech demo's if their gamplay wasn't so sweet.

Many of the effect were very subtle, so a lot of people don't notice them.

And for people asking about Pixel Shading in Gamecube games.. there generally isn't any. Thats because there is no Pixel Shader in the Gamecube. That also means that there is no code samples etc. that come with Pixel Shaders.

There is a TEV however, as mentioned above. So you won't see Pixel Shader effects in Gamecube games (possibly ripped from the previously released 3Dmark app), you will see unique TEV effects. Know what I mean? :p

And please, no lists. Any Gamecube owner already knows he/she has more games to look forward to than they have money. ;-)
 
Fox5 said:
BTW, what would an example of where gamecube would have an example in pixel shading? I can't really think of any, except maybe splinter cell, but that is a complete and total guess and I'm not even sure if it uses pixel shading.(what are the lighting effects considered? Is anything dynamic even lit?)
Click to expand...

Pikmin, Starfox Adventure, Super Mario Sunshine, Star Wars: Rogue Leader, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (?), Metroïd Prime (?).


Fragment Programs/Texture Envrionnement (OpenGL names), are most likely included to have nice effects, I don't think they did the NGC with the 'WOW super detailed graphics' factor in mind.
 
Fox5

BTW, what would an example of where gamecube would have an example in pixel shading?
Click to expand...

Take a look at the water in Mario Sunshine and zoom the water right out, that could be an example right there.

I can't really think of any, except maybe splinter cell, but that is a complete and total guess and I'm not even sure if it uses pixel shading
Click to expand...

No it doesn't, because rather then being a port of the XBox version it was basically a port of the PS2 version. Again lack of effort from devs.

Bohdy

I know what you mean, that TEV won't have the code base for copying and pasting effects like standard pixel shaders will. But devs can still write these pixel shader effects for TEV if they want. So AFAICS the reason we don't see these effects much on GC is because of lack of awareness and lack of effort from devs.
 
Tagrineth said:
I just have to add that I played P.N.03's demo, and the game feels very stiff and awkward to me. I won't be playing any more of it if I have a choice.
Click to expand...

tag, i'm looking forward to this game very much, have had high expectations (just from screenshots and movies, that is). could you, plz, elabore on your experience a bit. thanks.
 
darkblu said:
tag, i'm looking forward to this game very much, have had high expectations (just from screenshots and movies, that is). could you, plz, elabore on your experience a bit. thanks.
Click to expand...

The controls just felt really stiff, and there was no explanation in the demo or anything. I actually walked away before the demo timed out, a personal first for me.

For comparison, Billy Hatcher's demo drew me right in, and I'm definitely going to rent that game some time soon.
 
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