Gamecube, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways... :)

Grall

Invisible Member
Legend
ACTUALLY, this isn't a Chap topic, or at least I don't THINK so. :)

I bought Metroid Prime (PAL version, and yes it's totally fullscreen and runs really fast and smooth) on friday. I have since played it quite a bit I should say.

This game impresses me SO MUCH. It's fabulous, it's worth getting a cube just to play this awesome little GOD (Gamecube Optical Disc, hehe). It's so detailed, everything animates really smoothly, there's tons of geometry in every scene; loads of little details everywhere that really doesn't serve any purpose other than to impress and create a sense of realism. There's not even much in the way of jaggies. Textures are also super nice and smoothly trilinear-filtered (and the extra scanlines PAL res allows sure helps too I guess), and weapons effects and explosions and such are impressive as hell. The visor works great, the way it really LOOKS like a visor is awesome, when it frosts over when cold or is decorated with raindrops or a film of water etc.

The game hardly ever slows down. Usually it's only when blowing up multiple enemies or gobbling tons of powerups at the same time do I see some chugging, any other time it happens is few and far between. And I mean FEW and FAR. :)

Only thing I can complain about regarding graphics is the total lack of bumpmapping. Maybe they thought it would make it stand out if they just used it on some surfaces, and I don't think the cube could have coped with an additional texture layer on everything. Small niggle really. Would have been cool to see, is all. Bumping stuff isn't a mean unto itself after all, there has to be a reason for it, and overusing an effect just looks plain bad. Besides, I heard it mipmaps poorly, maybe it just would have made the graphics look sparkly instead?

The only thing that might be considered suckyness is the control scheme. Walking and turning on the same stick isn't really ideal, and the turning speed is too slow for my taste. Fortunately the game doesn't rely on "twitch" gameplay, but still it would have been nice with an adjustment in the options menu. I also don't like that the view doesn't auto-tilt (very much) with the ground. You feel kinda blind walking down a ramp this way, or when trying to approach the edge of a ledge or platform.

It would also be nice if the gun would auto-target enemies to a greater extent, the view jerks around a lot when one locks onto multiple enemies with L in quick succession, but again this is a minor complaint. The rest of the controls work just fine, and the buttons are easy to use. The "clicks" are put to good use in this game, which is cool. No unused button functions, hehe!

A testiment to this game's hookability is that I played it for three hours straight without even realizing it. It felt more like 20 minutes had passed, and when I moved my eyes from the TV screen they were all gritty like I hadn't blinked at all almost! Haha! YES, there is a lot of backtracking and passing through old areas, and the save points are few and far between. I haven't died that much though, and just about every time have been due to clumsyness (blame the somewhat quirky control scheme for that; Turok was much more precise), me dying from falling into poison or lava or such.

I don't know how far into the game I really am. I haven't found any of the extra guns yet, or extra visors either and I lack power bombs, highjump, grappler and spider ball too. Hehe, I want more guns! LOL! Come to think of it, I seem to miss most stuff actually so I'm probably not that far in yet.

Certainly money well spent. Both for the game AND the cube. Nintendo has always stood for solid quality, and both hardware AND software delivers this in spades. Fluid framerates, excellent visuals and immersive audio. People ragging on the chips in this little box should be ashamed of themselves! :LOL: I was terribly worried about all the stories we heard about trouble at Retro, but this really turned out to be a fantastic experience. Gumpei Yokoi, the Patron Saint of Metroid would be proud of this game I am sure!

Only thing I miss from the good old days (apart from the spin-attack powerup that made you invulnerable while jumping) are those bird statues that held the powerups in past Metroids. Where did they go? They were soo cool! :)


*G*
 
To go down a ramp while looking down it, hold R to look down, then hit L and let go of R. :)

The lack of bump-mapping isn't a big deal at all; where they wanted bumps they used real polys which looks better anyway :)

And sounds like there are a few more slowdowns... using the full PAL resolution is probably a little harder on fill-rate. There are nearly no slowdowns at all on the NTSC version.
 
I know the feeling, I felt like that when I finally got a GCN and MP was my first game for it (and it still is the only GCN game I have). I hope you like tons of backtracking, scanning and only 3 more weapons (credit must be given to Retro, since the few ones that are there are quite impressive). :D
 
Yeah MP is one of the greatest games this gen for sure. Level design 2nd only to Zelda. Speaking of which..is a Rembrandt in and of itself (WW that is). My Cube has really been gettting some heated play lately with R3 and now Zelda. Splinter Cell and Burnout 2 in a week..oh my here comes more debt for me.
 
Is Rayman 3 really good?
I wasnt sure after that Arena game they put out, good god that was awful..

and the commercial for it sucks, I dont know what peeing in the snow has to do with Rayman, they need to keep commericals related to the game, that urks me.
 
Tagrineth said:
To go down a ramp while looking down it, hold R to look down, then hit L and let go of R. :)

That's mega cumbersome, grrl! :D By holding L, you can't turn! There are ramps in several places that both go down and turn at the same time... They should have made the view tilt automatically in such areas. It does a LITTLE, but not nearly enough.

The lack of bump-mapping isn't a big deal at all; where they wanted bumps they used real polys which looks better anyway :)

One does not exclude the other. The polys in MP really isn't a substitute for bumping a texture; the polys are 'coarse' textures (single quotes used because this game is far more detailed than most software actually). Bumpmaps would have given fine detail. But I don't complain, really. I don't know how well dot3 bm handles specularity, stone is a lot more diffuse than metal for example and most surfaces in MP are stone. People usually seem to complain BM makes stuff look too shiny which would be unfortunate because MP is supposed to look old and weathered...

It does use some kind of weird reflective environment mapping on ice surfaces... You can see it in action in the Chozo Ice Temple for example when you get up close. Does GC do EMBM or just dot3 bump? It looks a bit like EMBM, maybe. Perhaps it's some TEV trickery? People don't seem to use that much, not even in a powerhouse like MP. It's just standard multitexturing and blending as far as I can tell.

And sounds like there are a few more slowdowns... using the full PAL resolution is probably a little harder on fill-rate.

I think it is about the same. Remember, it only runs at 50fps.

[/quote]There are nearly no slowdowns at all on the NTSC version.

Really, there isn't much in the PAL version either. I just mentioned the most common occurences to cover my a$$ because I'm sure some dick would have complained had I said there are no slowdown situations at all (which is basically true. Not quite, but basically). :D

You CAN make the game slow down if you know what you're doing and want to make it happen, but so far most places I have seen it happen is when you blow up a buttload of those swarmers (particulary in those sunny hallways in the Chozo Ruins where there's lots of transparencies going) with the charge gun, or explode many mushrooms all at once or grab a bundle of powerups so the screen is full of alpha effects.

GCs fillrate isn't monster, so I'm not surprised it stutters a lil under such circumstances. If it happens once every 20 mins under normal gameplay, seeing some dropped frames, it would be excessive. :D Really, it hardly ever happens.

Actually, I expected the game to chug a LOT more than it does. Mario Sunshine can stutter quite clearly sometimes and it runs at 30fps (25 PAL) and doesn't look HALF as good! Retro has some godly coder talent, that's for sure!


*G*
 
I haven't noticed any slowdown myself. Although I do have it running in 60hz mode so maybe that's why.

I actually really like the controls, they aren't always perfect, but what control system is. I think they're the best controls for this sort of game. But I agree that the view should tilt a bit when your near an edge. I don't really have a problem with this, I hadn't even thought about it until Grall mentioned it, but now that I think about it, it would be an improvment.

The game itself its freaking awesome. This game reminds me of Zelda so much. Sort of like a sci-fi, more serious, first person version of Zelda :)

The visuals are astounding. The first time I walked into Phandrena Drifts I just stood for about 10 minutes looking around. That goes down as the most beaufitul scene I've ever come accross in a game.

I love the visor effects, and all the other great little effects in the game. If you walk near steam it steams up. If you look up when its raining you can see small dropplets of water hitting your visor. If you put your head in some water and then get out, the water runs off your visor. Also I love it when one of those energy creatures (sorry can't remember its name) comes towards you and your visor starts to go fuzzy because of electrical interference. Or when I charge my gun and fire and the pusle it fires actually bends the air and distorts everything in view around the gun. Or when you fire the gun too much and you get a heat haze on the front of the gun. This is the sort of attention to detail that every game should have! Also I'm sure there are plenty of effects I either didn't mention or haven't seen yet.

I'm about 25% through BTW (last time I checked). I have the Varia suit and the second beam, as well as the high jump and ball boost.

On the subject of bump mapping, or lack of it. I don't think GC coping with another texture layer is a problem. After all GC is especially good at doing many layers in an efficient manor (8 layers in a single pass). Look at Rogue Leader. That game has loads of texture layers, loads of geometry, load of high res textures and loads of bump mapping too.

Retro probably just didn't want to add bump mapping yet. After all they had already created a whole engine and a highly detailed game, so they probably didn't want to hold the games release back. Hopefully we'll see bump mapping in Metroid Prime 2.

Just a note on advertising for this game in the U.K. Its been on a lot more then I expected. Its actually been on Sky One twice in the last half an hour (been watching Star Trek Next Generation :)). I also noticed it on the same channel in between the new episodes of Buffy and Angel. As well as at half time in Newcastle's game against Bracelona on another channel. I also remember it being on various other channels (ITV, BBC 1, E4, ITV2 ect). The advertising hasn't been quite as heavy as for Vice City, but it has been much heavier then for any other GC game so far. I just wish they'd change the commercial itself. Because while its good its not nearly as good as it could have been.
 
I recently got MP and the controls are A LOT easier than MOH. In MOH I used the thumbstick for aiming and the C stick for moving/strafing.
 
Metroid Prime is definitely an amazing achievement, and a very fun game. Definitely the GOTY last year, in my eyes. :)
 
Teasy said:
I haven't noticed any slowdown myself. Although I do have it running in 60hz mode so maybe that's why.

Figures. Teasy; always blind to anything even remotely negative to the Gamecube. :) Hehe. Just teasing, lol! :D Look man, the slowdown is there, you don't even have to search that hard for it.

I think they're the best controls for this sort of game.

No way. Without true freelook like in Turok, you're always stunted unless the game is designed never to threaten you anywhere else than from a basically flat plane around you (which the game does most of the time but not always).

It probably IS the best control scheme the GC controller allows though. In some ways it is ahead of the N64 pad, and in some ways it isn't. This is one of the cases of "isn't". Turok layout whups up on all other console FPS layouts. Clearly!

This game reminds me of Zelda so much. Sort of like a sci-fi, more serious, first person version of Zelda :)

You're weird! :D Obviously this game reminds of the original Metroid games, hehe!

The first time I walked into Phandrena Drifts I just stood for about 10 minutes looking around. That goes down as the most beaufitul scene I've ever come accross in a game.

That's NOT the most visually impressive scene. Well, not in my opinion anyway. Sure it is impressive as hell, but mainly technically. It's so WHITE, so little color! Ã￾t just looks drab and boring...

If you put your head in some water and then get out

How do you get out without YOUR HEAD, man? :D Sorry, bad joke, hehe!

Or when I charge my gun and fire and the pusle it fires actually bends the air and distorts everything in view around the gun.

Those kind of effects surprised the heck out of me initially when I first got my PS2. Never seen anything like that in a PC game before, but on consoles such cool stuff is rife. That is awesome. I wonder how it's done, probably some post-render effect maybe?

On the subject of bump mapping, or lack of it. I don't think GC coping with another texture layer is a problem.

I don't think you really can say that with any degree of certainty... :) You tend to have a set of pretty rose-colored glasses on at most times when it comes to the GC after all. :D

I don't think it would be much of a problem either, under normal circumstances. However when the action gets thick, it is my belief it would not be as easy for the lil cube to keep up. We want steady framerates at all times, and the game delivers that. Add more work, and it will start to sag.

Look at Rogue Leader. That game has loads of texture layers

...So people say. Can't really tell myself though. :) I haven't really played it much though.

The advertising hasn't been quite as heavy as for Vice City, but it has been much heavier then for any other GC game so far.

Over here, there's ZERO advertising done for any console system. Not even M$ want to pay any money, hehe.


*G*
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Just wait till you guys get to the Mines on MP. Talking about detail. Walk near a rock wall and you'll see jacks holding up the walls in areas. Look closely at the jacks and you'll see some freaking detail. Although there are areas throughout the entire game that just make you wet yourself.

About the "distortion" effect on Samus' gun. I'm playing Zelda WW right now and the torches have that same "heat effect" abouve them. To give credit J & D and RS;RL were the two games I first saw similar effects.
 
Btw, Yes Captain, Rayman 3 is that good. Never played RA as it was just a crappy PS2 game ported to GCN and XB. I refuse to play games like that. Although R3 was developed (lead) on PS2. Ubi had each version of the game running terrificly on each platform. And the GCN version is the best because of the link ups with the GBA R3 (one of the finest 2D platformer games ever imo) and the extra mini game Mad Trax that takes both a GCN and GBA player. It is fun as hell and very innovative.

R3 for GCN does'nt have as good a camera and control as R2 did but it's all easily forgivable imo. It's too great a game to pass up. Just make sure you buy a link cable when you get R3 for GCN.You dont need a copy of R3 GBA to do everything.
 
Look man, the slowdown is there, you don't even have to search that hard for it.

Did you read my comment? I said I am running this game in 60hz mode, not 50hz like you. So obviously I will not experience as much slowdown as you (60hz PAL runs at NTSC res AFAIK).

No way. Without true freelook like in Turok, you're always stunted unless the game is designed never to threaten you anywhere else than from a basically flat plane around you (which the game does most of the time but not always).

Didn't Turok just use direction buttons to move and a stick to look? That's be great for Turok or Goldeneye but not for this game AFAICS. The controls in MP aren't perfect, no controls are and they never will be. But given what your required to do in this game the controls are just about as good as they can be. I certainly wouldn't change them to dual analog ect.

BTW what controls scheme would you have prefered that wasn't possible with the GC pad?

You're weird! Obviously this game reminds of the original Metroid games, hehe!

LOL.. well obviously it would remind people of Metroid, that goes without saying doesn't it? Although to be honest I never played Metroid. I tried Super Metroid on a SNES emu when I heard about Metroid Prime. But I didn't get that far in to it. Were as I completed Zelda: OOT, so I can see the resemblence with that game.

That's NOT the most visually impressive scene. Well, not in my opinion anyway. Sure it is impressive as hell, but mainly technically.

I didn't really think it was that technically impressive actually. I just think its a beautiful scene. Then again whenever it snows heavily I always stare out of the window for ages or go out and walk around in it, so I suppose I just like that sort of thing.

I don't think you really can say that with any degree of certainty

But then you also can't say the opposite with any degree of certainty. We're both just giving our opinions not facts.

Nobody would argue that just adding bump mapping to Metroid Prime wouldn't hit the framerate (especially without spending more time refining the engine). All I said is GC would cope, meaning it would run it at an acceptable framerate.
 
Tagrineth said:
And sounds like there are a few more slowdowns... using the full PAL resolution is probably a little harder on fill-rate.
and
Teasy said:
I said I am running this game in 60hz mode, not 50hz like you. So obviously I will not experience as much slowdown as you (60hz PAL runs at NTSC res AFAIK).

Running at 50Hz will not lead to more slowdown. Both require the same amount of fillrate.

640*480*60= 18,432,000 pixels/second
640*576*50= 18,432,000 pixels/second

And polygon throughput, BW required to fill the texture cache and so on is lower in 50Hz mode.
 
Thowllly said:
Tagrineth said:
And sounds like there are a few more slowdowns... using the full PAL resolution is probably a little harder on fill-rate.
and
Teasy said:
I said I am running this game in 60hz mode, not 50hz like you. So obviously I will not experience as much slowdown as you (60hz PAL runs at NTSC res AFAIK).

Running at 50Hz will not lead to more slowdown. Both require the same amount of fillrate.

640*480*60= 18,432,000 pixels/second
640*576*50= 18,432,000 pixels/second

And polygon throughput, BW required to fill the texture cache and so on is lower in 50Hz mode.

But the frames are lower in 50 Hz. Play Rogue Leader in 50 Hz and 60 Hz. You'll see the difference. The slow downs are more visible in the 50 Hz mode.
 
hupfinsgack said:
But the frames are lower in 50 Hz. Play Rogue Leader in 50 Hz and 60 Hz. You'll see the difference. The slow downs are more visible in the 50 Hz mode.
Ok, that might be. I was thinking more in the line of the number of slowdowns. Even if the slowdowns feel worse in 50Hz mode, there should be fewer of them.
 
I've been playing this game for quite a while now and I have to say it's an incredibly addictive game. I've got to the Phazon Mines now and I have collected the majority of the items and I'm still enjoying it.

I've seen a bit of slowdown, it's very rare, at time I was fighting 3 flying enemies and I had a load crates explode simultaneously, which made it chug a bit.

The visor effects I good, the only one I don't like the look of is the condesation effect. But otherwise they're all very good. I like how each visor has it's own design to it. The water streaming down the visor was a very good one, as is the reflection of samus's face. 8)

Same for the weapons, there's enough difference between each one to make them look different.

The control scheme for the most part I thought was very good, but the turning speed could be a little faster IMO.

I thought the physics in the game is pretty good as well. When in morph ball mode, it just feels right. I would say it's on par with Super Monkey Ball, when it comes to ball rolling physics. :)

The most impressive thing for me was seeing the second boss, it's absolutely huge, it must be something like 25 times your size!
 
Thowllly

I realise that a PAL display won't technically suffer more slowdowns then a PAL60 display. What I am saying is the slowdowns will be more noticable on the PAL display. So I will experience less slowdowns in PAL60 then with PAL. Because I won't notice a lot of the slow downs in PAL60 that I would notice in normal PAL.

bystander

I've seen a bit of slowdown, it's very rare, at time I was fighting 3 flying enemies and I had a load crates explode simultaneously, which made it chug a bit.

The same thing happened to me last night when I was fighting some of those flying space pirates (or whatever they are). That's the first time I can remember it really slowing down to a noticable level.
 
Actually, you should get less slow downs in 50Hz than 60Hz since there is less geometry to handle. This should free up the CPU and and the TnL engine a little bit.
 
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