Game Trailer Roundtable with industry figures *

How exactly is this great news for us - in the eye of a casual consumer that only wishes to support one console of his choice?

In my experience, each and every one of the system gets better games than when there was just one system out there, as well as better hardware and support. Competition is a great thing and it should be applauded and encouraged, because it benefits the consumer. All the money that you thought you might save through devs just having to support one system disappears into the pocket of the platform holder anyway, partly through overpriced hardware - just look at Nintendo's handheld domination and how long they managed to keep us happy with overpriced hardware there while they were competitionless.

In the worst case scenario, you may end up buying two consoles, probably with a few years apart. Nothing wrong with that.
 
In my experience, each and every one of the system gets better games than when there was just one system out there, as well as better hardware and support. Competition is a great thing and it should be applauded and encouraged, because it benefits the consumer.
Two are fine. Microsoft's presence in the console market has nothing to do with healthy competition, and all to do with sinking-or-swimming the unlimited money reserves of a company that would not even exist as-is if it operated in reach of a functional legal system. And now the consle market is supposed to welcome and wish them good luck?

Do what you want, but if you ask me, no, Microsoft's contribution is not applauded and no encouragement for them.
 
Two are fine. Microsoft's presence in the console market has nothing to do with healthy competition, and all to do with sinking-or-swimming the unlimited money reserves of a company that would not even exist as-is if it operated in reach of a functional legal system. And now the consle market is supposed to welcome and wish them good luck?

Do what you want, but if you ask me, no, Microsoft's contribution is not applauded and no encouragement for them.

Paranoid much? MS actions to date are the exact opposite of what you are so worried about, they have been very conservative, even opting to turn down a Valve exclusive due to limited budget. So your fears are somewhat irrational...
 
Two are fine. Microsoft's presence in the console market has nothing to do with healthy competition, and all to do with sinking-or-swimming the unlimited money reserves of a company that would not even exist as-is if it operated in reach of a functional legal system. And now the consle market is supposed to welcome and wish them good luck?

Do what you want, but if you ask me, no, Microsoft's contribution is not applauded and no encouragement for them.

yeah whatever... m8. About your glide wrapper, that was awesome work, stick to it...

According to you sony or nintendo wouldnt have done that the same way?
 
In my experience, each and every one of the system gets better games than when there was just one system out there, as well as better hardware and support. Competition is a great thing and it should be applauded and encouraged, because it benefits the consumer. All the money that you thought you might save through devs just having to support one system disappears into the pocket of the platform holder anyway, partly through overpriced hardware - just look at Nintendo's handheld domination and how long they managed to keep us happy with overpriced hardware there while they were competitionless.

In the worst case scenario, you may end up buying two consoles, probably with a few years apart. Nothing wrong with that.

How so, do they get better games? If we assume we only have one console, we would get
  • less / zero number of multi-platform games that often target the lowest common denominator
  • as a result, games are optimized for one given hardware only
  • more games on the same platform == higher competition among those developers. As a result, we wouldn't have i.e. Ninja Theory that would escape onto a different platform (Xbox) to have the only fighting game (Dead or Alive 3) but would be forced to compete on the singular hardware with Tekken, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter etc

As a negative, I would say only having one console would
  • mean no competition between different console vendors. As a result, hardware advances might be smaller and life-cycles longer
  • Smaller developers with a smaller budget would have it more difficult to be successful in a large and very competitive market - not only having to compete with the best outthere but with thousands of other titles. As a result, software quality would go down, quantity goes up. Good titles with little marketing behind them would probably go under.

So what's better? Having a singular less cutting-edge platform with all the software one could hope for -OR N cutting-edge platforms with an equal market share and less efficiant software since most title will target multiple platforms?

Ask yourself, how many of todays 3rd party developers will make games that take advantage of Wii's controller or PS3's sixaxis controller if there game must run on all 3 platforms outthere? There's only so much one can do to make the same game run on all hardware yet take their different controllers into consideration. Then, after that, look at other factors that make a console unique: Sony's CELL processor with a huge amount of floating-point performance that could deliver a leap with physics in games. Or the built-in standard harddrive available in every PS3. Or some of the special unique features of the Xbox360 GPU.

Then also, ask yourself how big of a problem having a singular platform would be. The sole vendor of the console would need to stay somewhat cutting-edge or else they would make their market more attractive for other potential vendors to jump in with much better hardware. Nintendo is experiencing this somewhat with the entering of the PSP, although they do both seem to target a slightly different market. Regardless, Nintendo might not have pushed the envelope where graphics are concern with the GameBoy over the years, but they did innovate by making them smaller, batteries lasting longer etc. It's not as if they stayed with the original GameBoy over the years. Was it bad? I'd argue far from it - though I do appreciate the PSP, but for different reasons and factors that Nintendo would never persue (more mature content, multi-media features etc).

Argument over-priced hardware: Price is dictated by the market and what the market is willing to pay. If the price of that singular console goes up, it's because the market is willing to pay that (example: Windows). Any company, regardless if the sole vendor or in competition with other vendors has to find their ideal price based on demand and what they can afford / profit targets etc.

At the end of the day, it's not a one sided picture IMO.
 
Paranoid much? MS actions to date are the exact opposite of what you are so worried about, they have been very conservative, even opting to turn down a Valve exclusive due to limited budget. So your fears are somewhat irrational...
How on earth is that a reply to my post?
 
[*]less / zero number of multi-platform games that often target the lowest common denominator

True

[*]as a result, games are optimized for one given hardware only

You'd think yes, but how optimised are they going to be?

[*]more games on the same platform == higher competition among those developers. As a result, we wouldn't have i.e. Ninja Theory that would escape onto a different platform (Xbox) to have the only fighting game (Dead or Alive 3) but would be forced to compete on the singular hardware with Tekken, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter etc

And as a result, the game would probably not be made in the first place.

Howeve, unless you make a law that every tiny little detail of console hardware should be made available to the public from day one, the platform holder is going to have a significant advantage. They could always make their games run better, and release sooner.

[*]mean no competition between different console vendors. As a result, hardware advances might be smaller and life-cycles longer

As we've seen with the handheld market.

[*]Smaller developers with a smaller budget would have it more difficult to be successful in a large and very competitive market - not only having to compete with the best outthere but with thousands of other titles.

And this would be made worse by the lack of motivation of platform holders to change this situation, which after all is likely to be in their own advantage.

Now, on the other hand, we have the systems competing partly through finding new ways of publishing games, like Xbox with Live Arcade. Whether or not Sony was going to do this on their own if Microsoft hadn't, we'll never know for sure, but we can be sure that E-distro now has to compete with Live Arcade and so can be made better.

Ask yourself, how many of todays 3rd party developers will make games that take advantage of Wii's controller or PS3's sixaxis controller if there game must run on all 3 platforms outthere?

Actually, Nintendo pushes the Wii controller so hard that it's almost impossible for a publisher not to use it. The wiimote is the default controller and it just works best if you use it as intended. Also, as games can't distinguish themselves very much by improved graphics, resolutions, or sound, they have to use the wiimote capability as an incentive to get gamers to buy their new products.

Interestingly, this partly results in more support for the Sixaxis, as company can share some of their research on Wii and implement that on the Sixaxis.

There's only so much one can do to make the same game run on all hardware yet take their different controllers into consideration. Then, after that, look at other factors that make a console unique: Sony's CELL processor with a huge amount of floating-point performance that could deliver a leap with physics in games. Or the built-in standard harddrive available in every PS3. Or some of the special unique features of the Xbox360 GPU.

The harddrive penetration is sufficient on the 360 so that, together with the PS3 having one default, it makes using it for load-times and such profitable. In fact, it's the 360 Core's lack of it that is hurting publishers a little.

Then also, ask yourself how big of a problem having a singular platform would be.

I have. It's big. I'm imagining how good Windows could be if it had competition. Almost all the drive forward in this product comes from the little competition it gets from OS/X and Linux, and OS/2 previously. Before that, Apple really needed some competition from the Atari ST to pick up. And so on and so forth.

The sole vendor of the console would need to stay somewhat cutting-edge or else they would make their market more attractive for other potential vendors to jump in with much better hardware.

You are breaking the rules, by introducing the possibility of competition. Before long, you'll suggest a five-yearly bid for the best hardware, and whoever wins, can exclusively supply hardware for the next five years. The question is though, who is going to determine what is the best hardware? The market for console games is so immensely big, that there is going to be a best hardware for large and different groups of consumers. Therefore, there is plenty of room for hardware competition on the market. These different groups are making themselves more and more visible, to the point that the hardware vendors are starting to recognise their own primary markets - witness for instance Nintendo, who is very clearly carving out a niche for itself. It doesn't have to 'win' the console war, just make a profit, and the whole Wii project is geared towards that.

Nintendo is experiencing this somewhat with the entering of the PSP, although they do both seem to target a slightly different market.

I think more than slightly, even.

Regardless, Nintendo might not have pushed the envelope where graphics are concern with the GameBoy over the years, but they did innovate by making them smaller, batteries lasting longer etc. It's not as if they stayed with the original GameBoy over the years.

If you say so, but I could hardly tell the difference. I played a lot of games on my Atari 800XL back in 1986, and until recently on the DS, games barely distinguished themselves from those days, in which, by the way, the 800XL was up against the C64.

f the price of that singular console goes up, it's because the market is willing to pay that (example: Windows). Any company, regardless if the sole vendor or in competition with other vendors has to find their ideal price based on demand and what they can afford / profit targets etc.

I can't believe that you used Windows as an example in this discussion.

At the end of the day, it's not a one sided picture IMO.

It is not a completely one sided picture.

I would say that it is a bit like Communism vs Capitalism. Communism are cross-platform technology, like Java and XML, that bring different systems together and make for a more level playground, at the expense of using the hardware as efficiently as possible. Capitalism is hardcore, low level programming that strives to get the best out of a system in order to outdo the competition.

Without Capitalism (competition), Communism loses much of its drive and grinds to an inefficient halt. Without Communism, Capitalism (survival of the fittest) will temporarily have people pushing each other forward for the benefit of the consumer, but then favor the strongest and allow him to create a dominant position that allows him to crush or buy any oncomers, which in the end results in a complete standstil.

To keep things moving, you need a mix of both. So I think the current situation is fine. There is a lot of hardware, and there are development tools that allow you to create content that is good enough for all systems, but at the same time you can choose to target one system and do it well. In the latter case, you will sell well on that platform and distinguish yourself from others, in the former you might sell less on one platform (depending on the importance of technical merit in your game), but you will sell more on different platforms. So even here, there is a fine tension that stimulates both of them to compete sufficiently. If there weren't any games that coded to the metal, then multi-platform games could allow themselves to become very hardware inefficient and vice versa.
 
Two are fine. Microsoft's presence in the console market has nothing to do with healthy competition, and all to do with sinking-or-swimming the unlimited money reserves of a company that would not even exist as-is if it operated in reach of a functional legal system. And now the consle market is supposed to welcome and wish them good luck?

I'm personally just fine with Microsoft pumping money into the console market, as long as they never win. Or at least not until they've completely changed their ways and have been forced to become an open platform driver that gives equal opportunity to all developers, is completely open about the hardware, etc. (you can see that in this market, they are being forced

And even then, I would never want any player to completely wipe all competition off the market.

Do what you want, but if you ask me, no, Microsoft's contribution is not applauded and no encouragement for them.

However bad you may consider Microsoft's entry to the console world, if you ignore for the fact your fear for Microsoft dominating the market beyond proportion, using strong arm tactics to force the other companies out, and eventually achieve complete global electronics and communication market domination and becomes yet again an emperor so powerful that it can squash all competition ...

If you can bring yourself to do that (and I know it's hard, honestly), then consider also for a moment how good it was for non-Japanese developers, games-mag publishers and so on, to be taken seriously from day one, and not to have to learn Japanese and move to Japan to beg for scraps. That's just one of the good things they brought us, but for the B3D community right here, I'd say it is a very relevant one.
 
How on earth is that a reply to my post?

Because if you ignore all your irrational fears then you would see there is nothing to be worried about, that MS is playing by the rules. Their contribution has resulted in only positive things, pushing online forward, expanding the number of quality 1st party titles, and creating a situation where Sony felt the need to make the most powerful console they could afford.

There is absolutely no reason to not 'welcome' MS to this space based on their actions in this space. Just paranoia that is not based in reality.
 
Arwin,

I appreciate your reply, though I do feel you missed the point of my post entirely. Do reiterate, my post was in reply to RobertR1 and his quote "I too am predicting a 3 way split give or take a few percent here and there. In the end, it's great news for us!".

I haven't watched the 3rd part of the roundtable yet, but "3 way split" sounds as if the prediction is that of an evenly split market between Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft (each with around 33% of the market). *I disagree with RobertR1 that such a split would benefit the consumer.

I take it we agree that an evenly split market would encourage multi-platform games more than today. We probably wouldn't even have lead-platforms anymore, as developers would design games around the minimum common denominator and reduce development to a minimum.

On the topic of efficiancy:

Arwin said:
You'd think yes, but how optimised are they going to be?

Optimisation can be on various levels: For one, hardware will most certainly be better utilized. If you've ever participated in programming software yourself, it's not hard to see how only having to concentrate on one hardware makes the whole development process easier. Instead of finding ways of how to make game X run on platform A, B and C equally and finished within the same timeframe in the quickest time possible, developers will be planning around all the little quirks and unique hardware features of a given platform, actually taking advantage of them one way or the other.


Arwin said:
Phil said:
Ask yourself, how many of todays 3rd party developers will make games that take advantage of Wii's controller or PS3's sixaxis controller if there game must run on all 3 platforms outthere?

Actually, Nintendo pushes the Wii controller so hard that it's almost impossible for a publisher not to use it. The wiimote is the default controller and it just works best if you use it as intended. Also, as games can't distinguish themselves very much by improved graphics, resolutions, or sound, they have to use the wiimote capability as an incentive to get gamers to buy their new products.

You didn't read my sentance properly there; You missed two key words there (underlined above): 3rd party developers AND take advantage. I am well aware of the fact that Nintendo is pushing the Wii-Remote in unprecedented ways - it is after all the default controller as you correctly point out. Just because developers are forced to use it, doesn't however mean that they are taking advantage of it - and by taking advantage of it, I am not refering to a multi-platform game that offers a different control sheme. I'm talking about games that are designed around the uniqueness of that controller. I'm sure if you take some time to think about it, you'll find some examples of how the Wii-Remote could be used that just wouldn't be possible using a default controller. Would such games even exist from 3rd party developers if all they're planning are multi-platform games - games that should be able to run on all 3 platforms with minimal development costs? I would think not - sure, the Wii-Remote will be used one way or the other, but really taken advantage of, as we can surely expect from Nintendo exclusive developers? Hardly.

As I also pointed out, CELL in PS3 is one of those things that make that platform unique and is possibly its gratest selling point. How many of todays 3rd party developers can we expect to take advantage of CELL if in an evenly split market all they're worried is are games that run on all 3 platforms as easily as possible? Not many I fear.

Arwin said:
The harddrive penetration is sufficient on the 360 so that, together with the PS3 having one default, it makes using it for load-times and such profitable. In fact, it's the 360 Core's lack of it that is hurting publishers a little.

Again, you missed the point. I wasn't talking about the harddrive penetration of the 360 - I was talking about key-features that make a platform unique and how less of these key-features get exploited by developers that develop multi-platform games. The harddrive is a key-point of the PS3 because it's available in every single one of them. If developers take advantage of this, you'd see a lot more innovation that extends further than the simple caching to make loading quicker. Taking advantage of the harddrive is using it in a way that would make a game not possible without it. I'm not one to search for ideas, but given a bit time and creativity, I'm sure you could think of a few examples yourself.

Arwin said:
I have. It's big. I'm imagining how good Windows could be if it had competition. Almost all the drive forward in this product comes from the little competition it gets from OS/X and Linux, and OS/2 previously. Before that, Apple really needed some competition from the Atari ST to pick up. And so on and so forth.

You just opened a new can of worms here. I use both Windows and Linux (and have used other OSs as well) and while I can think of many ways of how to improve Windows, I can think of many ways of how to improve other products within a competitive market as well. I can think of ways of how to improve the Xbox360, the PS3, even Wii. Windows as a package is an impressive OS. I don't necessarely see Windows as a bad thing for our industry either. If you disagree, perhaps you can open a new topic in one of the more suited forums here or simply do a search on existing topics where this has been argued to death. There are pro's and con's to everything - my stance of the argument is that the cons don't necessarely outweigh the pros in the case of a singular platform in the console industry.

Arwin said:
Phil said:
The sole vendor of the console would need to stay somewhat cutting-edge or else they would make their market more attractive for other potential vendors to jump in with much better hardware.

You are breaking the rules, by introducing the possibility of competition. Before long, you'll suggest a five-yearly bid for the best hardware, and whoever wins, can exclusively supply hardware for the next five years. The question is though, who is going to determine what is the best hardware? The market for console games is so immensely big, that there is going to be a best hardware for large and different groups of consumers. Therefore, there is plenty of room for hardware competition on the market. These different groups are making themselves more and more visible, to the point that the hardware vendors are starting to recognise their own primary markets - witness for instance Nintendo, who is very clearly carving out a niche for itself. It doesn't have to 'win' the console war, just make a profit, and the whole Wii project is geared towards that.

I'm not breaking the rules - I'm merely pointing out the obvious. Just because there isn't competition doesn't mean there will never be. Even a monopolist has to think of ways to improve their product and keep their product selling or they will make potential competitors an easy entry. Nintendo (even though they were not a monopolist) learned this the hard way back in 1994 when Sony decided to enter the market with the PSone with an (arguable) better product. If we had a singular platform again (or a dominant one), that company would have to improve their product as well, or history could repeat itself easily. It's why we went from Windows 95 to 98, followed by ME and XP. One could argue that Microsoft had little reason to upgrade their OS being the dominant player (or even monopolist) of their own market - yet they had to, in order to keep sales coming in and moving with the times.

Same with Nintendo with the Gameboy...

Arwin said:
If you say so, but I could hardly tell the difference. I played a lot of games on my Atari 800XL back in 1986, and until recently on the DS, games barely distinguished themselves from those days, in which, by the way, the 800XL was up against the C64.

...even if you can't tell the difference - which to be honest I find quite surprising if you claim to have played games since 1986. GameBoy, GameBoy colour, GameBoy advance etc... and that's not even mentioning the numerous size reductions the GameBoy went through. I also remember back in 1991 when the GameBoy was big and the batteries lasted only for around 4 hours. As Nintendo bettered their product with larger cartridges, better displays, colour enhancements, smaller, more portable size, they moved with the times just as a singular console vendor would have to as well.

Even if the hardware advances wouldn't be that large and the life-cycles of the consoles would increase - I ask again - what is better?

  • Having a singular less cutting-edge platform with all the software one could hope for, but takes advantage of the hardware, all its quirks and uniqeness
-OR
  • N cutting-edge platforms with an equal market share and less efficiant software, untapped key-features that make a console unique, since most title will target multiple platforms?

Arwin said:
To keep things moving, you need a mix of both. So I think the current situation is fine.

I agree - if you mean with the current situation the situation we had with the PS2, GameCube and Xbox. As a PS2 consumer, obviously, I didn't have much to complain about. All the franchises that I was used to and loved back on the PSone targeted the PS2 well. As a gamer that enjoyes Japanese games, PlayStation has been and will remain the console of my choice. If the marketshare goes down to an equal 33% for all 3, I fear that the quality of multi-platform games will go down and the expensive hardware will go more or less unused and to waste. As a programmer myself, I'd also rather be programming for one single console rather than having to think about ways to make the same games work on all platforms. I love the PlayStation for their exclusives and the Japanese orientated games - if I was more intested in games with a close heritage from the PC, I would certainly consider an Xbox (I have on various occasions). I love Nintendo's consoles for the party and fun games and the innovation. Eventhough I still haven't got a GC, I will get one eventually - or go directly for a backwards-compatible Wii.

If where we are heading are to multi-platform targeted games - I'd rather just have them all on one and the same console and have them more optimized and take advantage of the unique features that the console has to offer rather than a dubed down version that's targeted for 3 different platforms.
 
Because if you ignore all your irrational fears then you would see there is nothing to be worried about, that MS is playing by the rules. Their contribution has resulted in only positive things, pushing online forward, expanding the number of quality 1st party titles, and creating a situation where Sony felt the need to make the most powerful console they could afford.

There is absolutely no reason to not 'welcome' MS to this space based on their actions in this space. Just paranoia that is not based in reality.
But why "fear"? And, by extension I suppose, why "paranoia"? Where do you get it from that those are my feelings? Something can be (subjectively) not right without fear bein involved, yes?

I didn't come here to explain why I don't welcome them, because I've done that enough in the past and it doesn't add anything to the thread but ... your assumption of fear is wrong. It's ineptitude. I would welcome a company with a talented engineering department that makes interesting things in any market. And don't come around blaming me for having an opinion now, you practically forced me to say it again.

"Competition" is what my initial reply was about. Competition includes the notions of opposition, of moving lines, of winning and losing based on relative merits. Losing 4 billion dollars is catastrophic failure, it will make you stop wanting to compete if you have any sense left.. That's how normal companies would operate, like Sega or even Gizmondo. And it will make me abstain from screaming "Yay well done! Now do it again!" (=applauding).

Rationalizing Microsoft's ongoing presence in the console market with "Competition is healthy" must be cynicism. Since when do the undead care about health.
 
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Rationalizing Microsoft's ongoing presence in the console market with "Competition is healthy" must be cynicism. Since when do the undead care about health.
you say that as though sony and nintendo wouldn't like to have a monopoly in the buisness.
 
"Competition" is what my initial reply was about. Competition includes the notions of opposition, of moving lines, of winning and losing based on relative merits. Losing 4 billion dollars is catastrophic failure, it will make you stop wanting to compete if you have any sense left.. That's how normal companies would operate, like Sega or even Gizmondo. And it will make me abstain from screaming "Yay well done! Now do it again!" (=applauding).

Rationalizing Microsoft's ongoing presence in the console market with "Competition is healthy" must be cynicism. Since when do the undead care about health.

How can you say in one breath that MS is going to 'kill' all competition in the marketplace, and then try and pretend your aren't paranoid. You are obviously paranoid because there's no reason to believe this will happen.

ANY company that wanted to break into the market in 2000 would've lost a ton of money, it was completely dominated by Sony and Nintendo. The majority of those loses were an investment in xbox live, which is now paying off in the 2nd generation, where MS expects to be in the black by 07/08.

It's just a load of crap, currently Sony is spending more on HW losses, Sony is spending more on first party titles, yet somehow MS is going to kill them off by out spending them?? Your fears have no basis in reality!

Sorry but your attitude just reeks of "MS is the devil" mentality that so many people have, which imo is complete BS. And accusing MS of ineptitude when they are one of the richest companies on the planet, that makes me laugh.

What exactly do you see about the implementation of the xbox 360 that you could classify as inept?
 
This discussion is moving totally sideways!

As we all know the problem a significant or vocal minority have with MS is their (perceived) domination of the desktop/workplace.

If you don't think about it too deeply the thought of a single outfit "controlling" your workplace and living room is kind of off-putting. What is even more unsettling is that MS are doing a great job with the 360. (Don't get me wrong - I ain't got a problem with any company if they're providing a good product.)
 
How can you say in one breath that MS is going to 'kill' all competition in the marketplace, and then try and pretend your aren't paranoid. You are obviously paranoid because there's no reason to believe this will happen.
You know scooby, I had hoped the two of us were past this. I really don't need you replying to some imaginary "someone like you might say something like this" whatever-it-is, that exists in your head only, with your own whatever-it-is. If you want to have a discussion with me, I suggest you read and understand the contents of my postings. Otherwise there really is no point.

There is no connection between my posting and your reply, just as there was no connection between my previous posting and your previous reply. You just repeatedly use me as an excuse to talk smack. For one, where in my posting history exactly did you find the word "kill"? Or anything that remotely justifies your first sentence? I'd wager it's not in this thread if you find it at all.

If you want to just ramble generally at the crowd, there's no need to quote me. And I want no part in your ramblings-at-the-crowd. So please just don't quote me from now on.

Oh, and I'm going to neg-rep you now because someone with a positive rep like yours really ought to make sense sometimes, and you fail repeatedly and consistently as far as I'm concerned. Don't worry though, I'm sure you'll find someone else who'll help you get past this.
 
Oh, and I'm going to neg-rep you now because someone with a positive rep like yours really ought to make sense sometimes, and you fail repeatedly and consistently as far as I'm concerned. Don't worry though, I'm sure you'll find someone else who'll help you get past this.

Funny but I got a pos-rep for that same post yesterday. You claim MS is not competing fairly with Sony or Nintendo, that is the statement I'm calling you out on.

Why don't you quit rambling and try and demonstrate WHY the competition from MS is not positive for the console space. Everything we are seeing points to the contrary.
 
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