Future of MS Exclusives? (Win10 & Xbox One...things)

It's not OS X, it's OpenGL.

That's part of the issue. But again. Even when OpenGL is used, performance on OSX in games is generally significantly behind performance on a similar hardware configuration with Windows using OGL.

If Apple didn't care about higher performance graphics it wouldn't have bothered bringing Metal to OS X. That's a serious undertaking and means continued ongoing collaboration with both AMD and Nvidia.

It has potential, but I'm not putting too much into that until we see some high profile games using it. And I'm not entirely sure that's going to happen. Blizzard are still committed to releasing on OSX, but they seem to be starting to lose interest. Whether due to lack of sales or difficulty of porting.

Valve are more interested in OSX as a cross platform target in addition to Linux, so they are unlikely to use Metal. Vulcan will have potential here, but we'll have to see how that plays out. Of course, that all depends on whether Apple will support it or not. And current indications are that they either won't be supporting it or aren't in a hurry to support it.

You don't need Apple to do anything to add a graphics API to BSD. Kernel extensions can play nice sharing hardware resources which is how OpenGL and Metal co-exist and DirectX and OpenGL co-exist on Windows. Games are already used to having to share GPU resources with the host OS. But having native DirectX APIs available isn't magically going to make a Windows .exe binary compatible with OSX and Linux because they're different operating systems.

That's why I said in addition to an Xbox Live environment and store, a virtualised Windows environment that's running DirectX natively inside the virtualised environment in which games run but which uses the host OS for higher level functions This is what tuned Wine wrappers do now but Microsoft could do this without the inefficient DirectX API translation/emulation. Modern virtualisation technologies mean you can pick and chose what to do natively and what you virtualise. Parallels and VM Fusion both use selective virtualisation and environment abstraction so you can run Windows apps in OSX and they look and act like OSX apps, and vise-versa OSX apps in Windows.

Microsoft are unique in that they alone can deploy a solution where performance critical code - Direct3D - does not need to be translated to the host's graphics API (or emulated) but can be run natively in a virtualised Windows environment. Microsoft have be working on a range of virtualisation technologies for years and they are very, very good at it. They own the codebase for the key code that games need to be as fast as possible and that it's the least desirable element to have to emulate or translate.

The problem there is that Microsoft would still be reliant on Apple to provide performant drivers etc. for the virtual OS and/or Microsoft provide them for hardware that doesn't have a Windows driver.

It also abstracts things farther away. Without as much control performance will suffer. And relying on Apple? When they have shown they can and will change things on a dime meaning it's up to the developer to adjust to the changes or have their app/program no longer work? It'd be a massive investment for Microsoft, with IMO, very little in the way of ROI other than perhaps mindshare.

Microsoft are unlikely to feel the investment is worth it. iOS and Android are worth it due to the huge install bases. OSX makes sense for high margin products (like Office), but lacks the install base to make Microsoft want to invest significant money into low margin products. Even though a hypothetical Xbox Store on OSX would isolate them somewhat from the high risk associated with releasing a game on the platform, I just don't see the ROI being there to prompt investment into it.

Perhaps it'll become a viable option if the Windows/Xbox store takes off in spectacular fashion and becomes hugely profitable and greatly desired by users thus making a foray into OSX potentially profitable. In other words, if it becomes a serious competitor to Steam, then maybe, but even then? Doubtful.

Regards,
SB
 
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That's part of the issue. But again. Even when OpenGL is used, performance on OSX in games is generally significantly behind performance on a similar hardware configuration with Windows using OGL.

OpenGL on Mac - 2010 spec OpenGL 4.1 with a few 4.2 extensions.
OpenGL on Windows - OpenGL 4.4.

It has potential, but I'm not putting too much into that until we see some high profile games using it.

Metal has only recently become a technology cornerstone in OSX since October 2015 the gestation period for "high profile" games is a few years so it's not going to happen overnight. But I assume you saw Epic on Apple's stage showing Fortnite running on Unreal 4.3 running on Metal so getting support into engines may make it happen sooner. Apple can only provide tools an frameworks - developers need to make it happen. The Metal API will gain support and traction just from iOS - Apple were smart to leverage this to push OSX forward.

Blizzard are still committed to releasing on OSX, but they seem to be starting to lose interest. Whether due to lack of sales or difficulty of porting.

I don't want to get too O/T but what have Blizzard said or done (or not done) to make you think this?

Valve are more interested in OSX as a cross platform target in addition to Linux, so they are unlikely to use Metal. Vulcan will have potential here, but we'll have to see how that plays out. Of course, that all depends on whether Apple will support it or not. And current indications are that they either won't be supporting it or aren't in a hurry to support it.

Valve's priorities are to make games accessible to as many people as possible regardless of the platform to the extent of building their own platforms: SteamOS and SteamMachines. Valve are also pushing Vulkan which will likely never make it to Mac unless AMD or Nvidia do this work themselves (no chance) although it's not inconceivable that Steam would port Vulkan to Mac to help developers because Valve are pushing Steam as a one-stop-stop for developers and customers.

I don't see Valve (or any other developer) investing in a dead technology (OpenGL) over a developing technology (Metal). Metal, Vulkan and DirectX12 (and Mantle, RIP) are intended to solve the same core problems and most high profile games in development will be using close-to-the-metal APIs. This development is actually the best thing that could happen for non-Windows PC gamers - and this is another opportunity for Microsoft. People want to play Windows games but they don't want Windows. Even if you give Windows away for free, you won't find many people who like to switch operating systems to play games. What people really want is Direct3D.

The problem there is that Microsoft would still be reliant on Apple to provide performant drivers etc. for the virtual OS and/or Microsoft provide them for hardware that doesn't have a Windows driver.

That's a strawman if ever I saw one. Everybody using or developing on Mac is reliant on Apple providing good drivers but if you're rendering graphics in a native Direct3D virtual machine then all you need OSX to do is take that target rendered rectangle and put it onscreen. Everything else is done by Direct3D - that's the whole idea.

It also abstracts things farther away. Without as much control performance will suffer.

What abstraction? There is no abstraction because DirectX is running native in a VM. This is so much faster than Wine-wrappers deconstructing DirectX calls, emulating a fat API pipeline and translating everything into ancient OpenGL on the fly.

Microsoft are unlikely to feel the investment is worth it. iOS and Android are worth it due to the huge install bases.

iOS and Android are not running on the same hardware that desktop Windows is. How would that even work?

OSX makes sense for high margin products (like Office), but lacks the install base to make Microsoft want to invest significant money into low margin products.

Where is the significant investment? Microsoft own a host of virtualisation technologies which already support Mac. This is a sunk development cost. Microsoft will continue to develop DirectX for Windows. This is a sunk development cost. Microsoft already have an App Store and server infrastructure. This is a sunk cost. How much do you think this would cost? Much of what we do at work is virtualised environments and while our environment will be nothing like Microsofts, virtualising workflows and pipelines in virtual machine environments and tying them together is kind of our bread and butter work. It's also how Azure is intended to work. Microsoft have all the pieces.

Even though a hypothetical Xbox Store on OSX would isolate them somewhat from the high risk associated with releasing a game on the platform, I just don't see the ROI being there to prompt investment into it.

Well if Microsoft aren't up to the task of doing it then they shouldn't. But there are a fair few gamers on OSX and Linux who do want to run Windows games on their hardware without having to switch operating systems at levels of performance beyond Wine. Taking a cut from digital sales sold through app stores is like taking candy from a baby. And hell, who says Microsoft have to take the industry standard sized piece of candy. If they're providing a service which makes publishers games accessible to Mac and Linux who otherwise wouldn't have access to them without Windows or translation technology, take a bigger cut. And as I said before, this virtualised environment is where they were heading with Xbox One's architecture - this is the next step.

Perhaps it'll become a viable option if the Windows/Xbox store takes off in spectacular fashion and becomes hugely profitable and greatly desired by users thus making a foray into OSX potentially profitable. In other words, if it becomes a serious competitor to Steam, then maybe, but even then? Doubtful.

Microsoft sitting on it's arse only trying to expand after other markets become successful is arguably a big part of why they are where they are - in markets with little growth potential. They lived off Windows and Office licensing for more than a decade and you don't become successful by being complacent and entering a market if it looks profitable after its been established.

Direct3D remains one of Microsoft's most valuable gaming technologies but Microsoft's lack of incentive or willingness to share and license it means it has begun to become marginalised. Things are only of value if you allow people to buy them and increasingly in this day and age, on their terms. Bless AMD for kicking this off with Mantle but the avalanche of thin-graphic-APIs is now unstoppable. The thinner you make the API, the less there is to differentiate (and add value) to how you plumb this game code into this GPU hardware. I don't see this trend reversing.

Games are a growth market. The division of where dollars are spent shifts but every year the revenue from gaming rises to crazy new levels which is why Microsoft should want their licensed gaming technology be on as many platforms as possible and investing in technologies that make it easy to jump to new platforms. The sooner you get in and start doing it, the more experience to gain to work out the kinks. If you launch a new product with kinks in an already-developed market, you're going to get eaten for lunch. Azure is a good server platform but it's never going to displace AWS and Google. Windows Mobile is a good OS but it's never going to displace Android or iOS. Zune was a good music player but it was never going to displace the iPod. I would have hoped by now that Microsoft will have learned their lesson about leaving things until later. Steam is currently the 800lb PC gaming gorilla but there are things it can't do in terms of serving customers, particularly Mac and Linux customers, what they want. There is money there and Microsoft already have the tech to help them collect it.

It would also be the logical next step to the architectural technologies chosen for Xbox One. Architecturally, the Xbox One is a solid platform.
 
Ms needs more titles like these:
Then again, most living rooms can't support a bouncing basketball. But eh :)

That looked liked fun , problem for me, is that my poor neighbours would go nuts with the sound of me dribbling a basketball. Thump thump from the apartement above them :)
 
GPD Win, the portable "videogames console" with Windows 10 and Xbox Live. The future is now?

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https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2#/
 
How much of that is down to the software they're running though? Honest question here.

x86 is normally running Windows, which is working towards the low power experience with lots of legacy considerations, while ARM is normally running OSes and software designed for power optimised platforms (and currently in the process of scaling up as ARM does).

With the same software and the same level of optimisation, how far are the various ARM implementations common in Android devices ahead of Intel with likes of Cherry Trail?
 
x86 is normally running Windows, which is working towards the low power experience with lots of legacy considerations, while ARM is normally running OSes and software designed for power optimised platforms (and currently in the process of scaling up as ARM does).

Most ARM devices use Linux as the OS kernel (Apple's stuff is excepted of course). I think the use space bits matter more these days.
 
Unless you need binary compatibility with desktop apps, there is no reason to use intel or AMD products in this segment.

Which you kind of do in a device aimed at "Windows 10 Gaming".
And honestly having great 3D capabilities in all non-apple ARM SoCs right now is just a waste of money, die area and transistors as long as the best-looking Android game is Modern Combat 5 from Gameloft.


Regardless, $300 for that thing is way too much, specially since you can buy a Lynx Vision 8 for less than $200 right now, which also doubles as a detachable tablet on its own.
 
Which you kind of do in a device aimed at "Windows 10 Gaming".
And honestly having great 3D capabilities in all non-apple ARM SoCs right now is just a waste of money, die area and transistors as long as the best-looking Android game is Modern Combat 5 from Gameloft.


Regardless, $300 for that thing is way too much, specially since you can buy a Lynx Vision 8 for less than $200 right now, which also doubles as a detachable tablet on its own.

Yeah, I always found that kind of funny. ARM devices currently have much better graphics power than x86 low power devices. Yet the only way to really take advantage of powerful graphics virtually requires x86 in order to run Windows PC games. AFAIK, there's nothing on mobile that currently comes even close to taking advantage of the higher graphics power available in the higher end of the ARM graphics spectrum. Maybe that'll change in the future.

So we have x86 tablets that really need the graphics oomph if you want to attempt to play the latest games, but don't have it. And you have ARM devices with lots of graphics oomph, but no way to really take advantage of it.

Regards,
SB
 
It's a good thing if all Xbox Exclusive titles came to PC; It gives xbox users the option to play the games at HD resolutions, as well as with better effects. Having played Quantum Break on Xbox one; the game appears to be a total mess; flickering low precision shadows, low resolution SSR, low resolution graphics, muddy motion blur and so on.
On PC; the game could be a masterpiece; imagine Quantum Break with the image quality of The Order... at 60fps... It could be in the running for a best graphics of the year. The same with Alan wake; on Xbox it was a low resolution laggy mess of a game. But on PC you could really see how impressive the engine is.

The only thing they need is: Xbox One PC Disc compatibility: You put in the Xbox One disc, and it freely downloads the PC version, copying assets from the Xbox One disc. How awesome would that be?
 
A few of us here at B3D have suggested consoles might move towards more continuous hardware evolution with full backwards compatibility and a degree of forwards compatibility.

MS would seem to be a good place with regards to that - their emulation and BC abilities are second to none, and they have a virtualised sub elements. They would also seem to be most in need of a near term shot in the arm with regards to hardware. It would also allow them to drive "cutting edge" development on PC and their Win 10 app store.

I still think a high end "XBone Two" late 2017 or 2018 would be a good idea.
 
2017 , second gen of GCN 3.0 , Zen Cpu , HBM 2 , SSD to replace hardrive. 14/16nm

If VR takes off , we could get a Kinect v3 designed from the ground up for VR.

Make cross platform buy with your existing library so if you own a game on xbox one or on windows store you can play it on your new xbox.

It would certainly force sony's hand
 
I hope they go for it and pull it off. As long as anyone that buys a console, get to play current games now and for a decent length of time after, this type of approach could be very disruptive to the industry.
 
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