From PC to Next-Gen Consoles: Largest Performance Gap...

[MfA]

Jaws, once again ... talk is cheap. The processor has never been the limitation, Cell adds nothing you couldnt accomplish in software. Object oriented parallel processing is not new, but it doesnt really solve fundamental problems.

BTW, no matter what architecture you have memory access patterns will be unpredictable ... and if you have multiple levels of caching that means multiple threads of execution will be an advantage, you can do this in software but only if the hardware allows dozens of outstanding prefetches/DMA-requests.

 

[PC-Engine]

SEGA had NAOMI 2 which is essentially a DC 1.5 that they didn't convert to console form. It's more powerful than PS2 in many ways.

In the arcades.

DC also came from the arcades. It's called NAOMI.

 

[Brimstone]

Still, Cell is/was being created with 45nm in mind.

Source?

Vince and panajev.

More seriously, i forgot the IMO in the end of the sentence.
Still we have plenty evidences that they're aiming to 45nm, since they already boosting the research for that process. (They already have working samples, IRC?)
And the (presumed) size of the CPU + edram and GPU + edram (let's call it the dream setup), shows that a smaller process is needed if they don't want their costs per chip to skyrocket.
And if you add the various interviews (old interviews!) about Cell (especially the one interviewing the guy in charge of the OS) talking about a 2006 launch.
A Cell created with 45nm in mind is not "that" crazy...

Still, it's pure speculation (At least, on my side).

That would be a phenomial semiconductor achievement to have the PS3 CELL CPU at .45nm at launch in 2006. One of the most exciting things I've read about the .45nm node is the Floating Body Cell eDRAM design from Toshiba.

 

[one]

We're hearing 2 rumors about the final XeCPU, one talks about customized PPC97x cores and the other about customized Power5's... So, of course they will be use in others situations, since they already are.

From what I understand both of these rumours just sound silly, in more ways then one. Unless the "customized" part refers to some significant redesigns of the core, such as completely altering the number of execution units etc.
Then again, I'm also not one that expects PEs to be PPC97x derivates either.

For what processor technology, other than Power4-modified PPC970/FX/MP or Power5, can IBM license Microsoft? You can't get license of not-existent thing

I pointed out why sony had such success. Sega launched the dc a year befor sony. Was breaking even per system at 200$ sony was loosing at least 150$ per system a year later selling at a 300$ price point. Do you argue that in 1999 with a 450$ price point the dreamcast wouldn't have been at least on par with the ps2 ? Considering how well its games still stand up to ps2 games i would at least be able to and with a dual neon 250 chipset with 125mhz on each core it would have had more than double the performance. Add in a elan and it would have done 10 million sustianed polygons with 4 lights and i would wager still cost less than a ps2.

IMO PS2 had 3 advantages over DC back then:

1. More "power" (note that this "power" is conceptual thing to average consumer)
2. DVD playback
3. Backward compatibility

1. might not appeal to clever consumers, as the PS2 launch games were shit. But 2. and 3. should be enough to buy a PS2 over a DC. Thus slightly beefed up DC can't beat PS2. But slightly better PS2 (PSP could get more memory than first announced spec because of complaints, then why not PS2?) can match Xbox in all aspects (except for difficulty in development, but consumers don't care and dev cost for PS2 and Xbox are not significantly different actually), as I stated in this thread before.

As for 45nm or 65nm process for Cell production, it only depends on market situation. Currently EE+GS for PS2/PSX and PSP processor are produced in 90nm lines and those older processors can move to 65nm as soon as possible, too. Xbox2 launch schedule must be one of big factors to estimate PS3 launch time. Other possible factor is supply of XDR-DRAM. PS3 can be clocked higher if launch is delayed, just like PS2. If Xbox 2 is significantly delayed PS3 can be 45nm, else it will be 65nm.

 

[Lazy8s]

one:

But slightly better PS2 (PSP could get more memory than first announced spec because of complaints, then why not PS2?) can match Xbox in all aspects

More memory for the PS2 was neither feasible nor does it give the system the blending and pixel shading capabilities among other things of the Xbox. You're basically suggesting a system that isn't a PS2.

 

[one]

one:

But slightly better PS2 (PSP could get more memory than first announced spec because of complaints, then why not PS2?) can match Xbox in all aspects

More memory for the PS2 was neither feasible nor does it give the system the blending and pixel shading capabilities among other things of the Xbox. You're basically suggesting a system that isn't a PS2.

OK, you can dig at it, but my point is not there. Compare them.

• 
  The actual PS2 can match Xbox in not all aspects but won over Xbox in the market.
  
  A system which is not a PS2 can match Xbox in all aspects.

In other words, Xbox couldn't be better enough to win over PS2 in this real world including consumers and actual game IPs. In the post above I compared "off-the-shelf stable tachnology" to "radical design." To compare them, other conditions such as difference in launch time of PS2 and Xbox should be offset, so my assumption came. You only took its tail and contorted it in your previous post and jvd jumped on it to confess his wet dream about Sega console

 

[Ty]

DC also came from the arcades. It's called NAOMI.

But DC != NAOMI.

 

[Tuttle]

"For what processor technology, other than Power4-modified PPC970/FX/MP or Power5, can IBM license Microsoft? You can't get license of not-existent thing"

The PowerPC 440.

 

[BigGamer X]

one:

But slightly better PS2 (PSP could get more memory than first announced spec because of complaints, then why not PS2?) can match Xbox in all aspects

More memory for the PS2 was neither feasible nor does it give the system the blending and pixel shading capabilities among other things of the Xbox. You're basically suggesting a system that isn't a PS2.

Yeah, he seems to think it's OK to mysteriously boost the specs of the PS2, but not of the DC or XBOX. Hey, I have a GPU with 4096 Unified shaders at 800 GHZ with 1 TB of ram and fully programmable ready to roll for xbox2 !

 

[MfA]

The PS2 was an expensive design, so was the X-Box ... at the same point in time the DC wasnt.

 

[jvd]

The PS2 was an expensive design, so was the X-Box ... at the same point in time the DC wasnt.

exactly .

adding more ram to the ps2 just wasn't very possible.

Adding a second neon 250 or a elan chip to the dc was possible.


power vr chip at 125 (was easily possible as it was clocked like this for the neon 250 ) x2 .

sh4 at the same speed .

elan .

I could see it easily coming close .

 

[one]

"For what processor technology, other than Power4-modified PPC970/FX/MP or Power5, can IBM license Microsoft? You can't get license of not-existent thing"

The PowerPC 440.

Interesting, if you are kidding...

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/news/2004/0413_power.html

Applied Micro Circuits Corporation announces definitive agreement to acquire intellectual property and a portfolio of PowerPC® 400 products from IBM, signs Power Architecture™ license

AMCC has IP over PowerPC 403, PowerPC 405 and PowerPC 440, thus if MS wants PPC 440 in Xbox 2 the licensor is not IBM but AMCC.

 

[Tuttle]

Not the 440 specifically, but something similar. Google on IBM, 440 and xbox to see why.

 

[Brimstone]

IBM has the rumored 3xx line of CPU coming out around 2005. The Power PC 350 is rumored to be headed to Apple. A variant of 350 is probably headed towards the XB2.

 

[one]

Not the 440 specifically, but something similar. Google on IBM, 440 and xbox to see why.

Oh, you were not kidding then?
Now, something similar to PPC 440? Isn't it called 'Gekko' for the Gamecube? All IP about PPC400 chips were already sold to AMCC. What's your point, again?

 

[Tuttle]

What's your point, again?

Whatever.

 

[PC-Engine]

DC also came from the arcades. It's called NAOMI.

But DC != NAOMI.

What was NAOMI then? How did DC get arcade perfect ports of NAOMI games?

 

[one]

DC also came from the arcades. It's called NAOMI.

But DC != NAOMI.

What was NAOMI then? How did DC get arcade perfect ports of NAOMI games?

http://www.system16.com/sega/hrdw_naomi.html

CPU : Hitachi SH-4 64-bit RISC CPU (200 MHz 360 MIPS / 1.4 GFLOPS)
Graphic Engine : PowerVR 2 (PVR2DC)
Sound Engine : ARM7 Yamaha AICA 45 MHZ (with internal 32-bit RISC CPU, 64 channel ADPCM)
Main Ram : 32 megs
Main Memory : 32 MByte
Graphic Memory : 16 MByte
Sound Memory : 8 MByte
Media : ROM Board (maximum size of 172MBytes) / GD-Rom
Simultaneous Number of Colors : Approx. 16,770,000 (24bits)
Polygons : 2.5 Million polys/sec
Rendering Speed : 500 M pixel/sec
Additional Features : Bump Mapping, Fog, Alpha-Bending (transparency), Mip Mapping (polygon-texture auto switch), Tri-Linear Filtering, Anti-Aliasing, Environment Mapping, and Specular Effect.
Known games on Naomi hardware : 56+

http://www.consolehaven.com/dreamcast/hardwaresega.htm

CPU:
128bit Hitachi SH4 RISC
200MHz clock rate
360 MIPS (millions of instructions per second)
1.4 billion floating-point operations per second
3D calculations
800+ MBytes/second bus bandwidth

Graphics Core:
NEC PowerVR Second Generation
3 million polygons/second peak rendering rate
Perspective-Correct Texture Mapping
Point, Bilinear, Trilinear and Anisotropic Mip-map filtering
Gouraud shading
Z-buffer
Colored light sourcing
Full scene anti-aliasing
Hardware-based Fog
Bump mapping
16.77 million colors
Hardware-based texture compression
Shadow and Light volumes
Super sampling

Memory:
16 MB main RAM
8 MB video RAM
2 MB sound RAM

Operating Systems:
Customized Sega OS. Dreamcast is also designed to run a custom flavor of Microsoft Windows CE, and will display the official WinCE logo at startup if the game that's running utilizes it.

Sound:
Yamaha Sound Core
RISC CPU
DSP for real-time effects
64 sound channels
Full 3D sound support
Hardware-based audio compression

Storage Media:
GD-Rom
1 Gbyte data storage
12x speed Constant Angular Velocity drive
Visual Memory System data save unit

Control Pad:
Digital and analog directional controls
Dual analog triggers
Visual Memory System data save unit (see below)

Expansion Options:
Modem
33.6Kbytes per second transfer rate
Upgradable

A NAOMI is a beefed-up DC with more memory.
Also this comparison sheet for DC and PS2 hw is very interesting (DC has more VRAM than PS2)

 

[jvd]

yup it has slightly more ram.

Which was needed for the higher res of the arcade screens.

 

[one]

yup it has slightly more ram.

Which was needed for the higher res of the arcade screens.

Hmm, but

SEGA had NAOMI 2 which is essentially a DC 1.5 that they didn't convert to console form. It's more powerful than PS2 in many ways.

are you guys talking about which NAOMI? A NAOMI 2 is a quite different beast with SLI GPU and much more memory...

http://www.system16.com/sega/hrdw_naomi2.html

The NAOMI 2 (New Arcade Operation Machine Idea) also Japanese for beauty above all else.
CPU : SH-4 128-bit RISC CPU (200 MHz 360 MIPS / 1.4 GFLOPS)
Graphic Engine : 2 x PowerVR 2 (PVR2DC-CLX2) GPU's - (under the fans)
Geometry Processor : Custom Videologic T+L chip "Elan" (100mhz) - (Under Heatsink)
Sound Engine : ARM7 Yamaha AICA 45 MHZ (with internal 32-bit RISC CPU, 64 channel ADPCM)
Main Memory : 32 MByte 100Mhz SDRAM
Graphic Memory : 32 MByte
Model Data Memory : 32MByte
Sound Memory : 8 MByte
Media : ROM Board / GD-Rom
Simultaneous Number of Colors : Approx. 16,770,000 (24bits)
Polygons : 10 Million polys/sec with 6 light sources
Rendering Speed : 2000 Mpixels/sec (unrealistic max, assumes overdraw of 10x which nothing uses)
Additional Features : Bump Mapping, Multiple Fog Modes, 8-bit Alpha Blending (256 levels of transparency), Mip Mapping (polygon-texture auto switch), Tri-Linear Filtering, Super Sampling for Full Scene Anti-Aliasing, Environment Mapping, and Specular Effect.
Compatibility : Fully backwards compatible with all Naomi and GD-Rom games.