Flesh damage technology.

[mitran]

I am perhaps writing in the wrong forum ?
But what ever hapend to the technology of " body part " damage?
I do know of a few old games that has quite exact damage, exemple you are shoot in your leg and your figure gets limp in the hurt leg.
Even in the PS1 era there where games that had " realistic " body damage.
Like Toshinden and MGS3 on the PS2 also had some type of hit detection and resulting damage . Now if the PS1 and PS2 have the cpu power to emulate specific damage surly the PS3, Xbox 360 should allow for excellent detection down to the little finger ?
Is it a massive undertaking too realy build systems for this ? Or did developers simply forget about it? Its a shame because it can and will ad lots of new game play elements.

 

[Neb]

Having characters made up of an extensively detailed mesh that allows detailed deformation aint cheap. And then to have it react corrctly physically and also carry a detailed hitbox with lots of individual 'boxes' aint cheap. Reason why for example physics based soft cloth in games is limited and when present uses pre-computed animations or has very low polygon amount to lower collision detection work. Though PhysX has shown some serious use of detailed soft cloth but thats been limited to PC.

Now your talking about hitbox detection and individual hit zones aswell as animation for specific damage. That mostly should boil down to developer attention to damage system since very old games done this and some modern do to.

 

[mitran]

@Nebula I am talking about both systems, perhaps a mixture of precaned animation and physics, something most driving games do.
" texture/ shader based and polygon " knife attack cuts a smal hole in the body and or limbs and you have a 2d bloodflow loop + alterd animation + ragdoll physics.
Now if some one gets his/here limbs thorn off you ad polygon damage (ninja gaiden 2) Of course a limb thorn off = game over unless a medic reattach the limb:smile:
I think a mixture should allow for lots of new game play mechanics.

 

[Raqia]

The developer commentary for Left 4 Dead 2 details some of the things they did for that game. I seem to recall that they used a sphere approximation to create a hole in zombie hit by a shotgun blast and layered some textures over the portions of the model near it.

 

[TheChefO]

A bit off topic, but I hope next gen we can finally do away with pre-canned animation and switch to more euphoria type animation systems which can blend scripted animation with physics animation.

This should be the standard.

It is the one area where I thought PS3 developers would hold a demonstrated edge over xb360 counterparts but it has not come to be. (aside from a small case sample of one or two titles)


There needs to be a standard level of quality which is above and beyond what current gen consoles are offering. This gen the big bump in resolution to "HD" was a selling point that blended well with HDTV adoption.

Next gen it may be 3D displays which compliment a push into 3D games, but I hope this isn't the be all end all feature set which next gen consoles push as consoles this gen will have the ability to produce 3D games as well.


I think there is a common desire to see more "realism" in games which is falsely placed. I don't think most people want more realism necessarily, but there is a strong desire to see more variability which is reflected in the real world. Variability being represented by Physics based animation and non-scripted AI and events.

Granted, much of what I'm speaking of will break existing game designs and make game creation a bit more of a headache, but it is invaluable to creating exciting experiences for consumers which entice them to come back for more as each experience is new.

I think much of this is why Halo1 was such a hit. Not quite to the extent that I'm speaking of, but the AI and physics were ground breaking for the genre and consoles.


Expanding on this ideal as an agreed upon nextgen standard among the industry would be a good thing. Going further by introducing technology across the board such as discussed in the OP would only help.

FYI - Fallout3 and Vegas fit the bill WRT what you're asking with specific damage and consequence (without the graphic depiction). But the idea of this becoming a standard is, again, a good idea IMO.

 

[Raqia]

A bit off topic, but I hope next gen we can finally do away with pre-canned animation and switch to more euphoria type animation systems which can blend scripted animation with physics animation.

This should be the standard.

I agree w/ your later statements, and Euphoria is nice but I thought it got in the way of GTA IV mainly because I didn't enjoy the way Niko moved due to his being too tied to the physics engine rather than having snappier custom animations. There are parts that I thought euphoria actually helped, and these include NPCs, having Niko's feet align w/ stairs, and the drunken staggering moments. Otherwise, the guy felt like a freight-train compared to player characters in other games, and this is not fun.

I think physics for the player character should take second fiddle to handtuned game play, althought I wouldn't mind seeing more realistically modelled NPC actions and death / other non-controllable animations standard in the future.

 

[Bigduo209]

I am perhaps writing in the wrong forum ?
But what ever hapend to the technology of " body part " damage?
I do know of a few old games that has quite exact damage, exemple you are shoot in your leg and your figure gets limp in the hurt leg.
Even in the PS1 era there where games that had " realistic " body damage.
Like Toshinden and MGS3 on the PS2 also had some type of hit detection and resulting damage . Now if the PS1 and PS2 have the cpu power to emulate specific damage surly the PS3, Xbox 360 should allow for excellent detection down to the little finger ?
Is it a massive undertaking too realy build systems for this ? Or did developers simply forget about it? Its a shame because it can and will ad lots of new game play elements.

Quite few games have flesh damage (GOW3,Dead Rising, L4D, Mortal Kombat, Afro Samurai, and more).

A bit off topic, but I hope next gen we can finally do away with pre-canned animation and switch to more euphoria type animation systems which can blend scripted animation with physics animation.

This should be the standard.

It is the one area where I thought PS3 developers would hold a demonstrated edge over xb360 counterparts but it has not come to be. (aside from a small case sample of one or two titles)


There needs to be a standard level of quality which is above and beyond what current gen consoles are offering. This gen the big bump in resolution to "HD" was a selling point that blended well with HDTV adoption.


I think there is a common desire to see more "realism" in games which is falsely placed. I don't think most people want more realism necessarily, but there is a strong desire to see more variability which is reflected in the real world. Variability being represented by Physics based animation and non-scripted AI and events.

Expanding on this ideal as an agreed upon nextgen standard among the industry would be a good thing. Going further by introducing technology across the board such as discussed in the OP would only help.

FYI - Fallout3 and Vegas fit the bill WRT what you're asking with specific damage and consequence (without the graphic depiction). But the idea of this becoming a standard is, again, a good idea IMO.

I'd say HD is why there hasn't been a big jump across the board for console development. Devs at first were putting more emphasis on HD visuals thinking that it's where most people would notice. Now you see a stronger focus going back into gameplay and other areas that could be improved through better console-resource management. Most games are willing sacrifice a 720p resolution standard to focus on other productive areas like A.I., physics, and other aspects.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

FYI - Fallout3 and Vegas fit the bill WRT what you're asking with specific damage and consequence (without the graphic depiction). But the idea of this becoming a standard is, again, a good idea IMO.

Even there it's still just 6 basic hit "areas" for most enemies. There is the possibility of blowing limbs off (when enemy dies), but with regards to hit location and damage representation it still trails behind a game released back in March of 2000, Soldier of Fortune. And that's just the first title that popped to mind. It also had 26 hit locations each with the ability to show damage in quite graphic ways.

I can't think of any title since then that has done as much as that title with regards to hit location and damage representation.

Regards,
SB

 

[Dungeonscaper]

I don't think I've seen any games out yet with dynamic 'volumetric' flesh deformation, just procedural stuff like arms and legs blowing off in a scripted fashion.

Metal Gear Solid Rising has shown some impressive dynamic objective deformation, but it's not exactly fleshy soft-body stuff, just cutting things in half.

 

[Colourless]

The way it works in fallout 3/nv is quite simple. Each mesh is partitioned into the various limbs/parts of the creature/robot. Each mesh also contains conditionally shown parts for gore where the limb is blown off. Its possible that a custom creature could be created for the games that has a significantly larger number of targetable limbs, but as far as gameplay goes it would be reasonably pointless. Its hard to justify targetting anything other than head or legs as is.

 

[nightshade]

Metal Gear Solid Rising has shown some impressive dynamic objective deformation, but it's not exactly fleshy soft-body stuff, just cutting things in half.

The very first rising trailer has a part where they show Raiden cutting through a body multiple times from different angles.

 

[mitran]

The problem is that there has been almost no progression in this department.
Yes in GOW3 you could rip arms heads eyes off your enemies but thats not new, even in GOW1 you could do this. If i take fallout 3 as an example, if I get massive hit to the head I did get limp until I take medication, in Fallout3 the alterd animation only started when you where near death, a other example is that I did fire a rocket propelled grenade at my human enemy that was standing 5 meters away he wold die but still be unscaved. Also in most games the game will not let the player / playes to get any damage.
In GOW3 you could get cut in the leg but kratos dose not even limp for a second, but even kratos feels pain. There is no visible damage. Killzone2 did its best to give limb damage to enemy troops, but no damage to the player.
Can it really take so much time and effort to do a blend? physics + animation and copy pasta ?

 

[Dungeonscaper]

The very first rising trailer has a part where they show Raiden cutting through a body multiple times from different angles.

Yes, you can produce multiple dynamic cuts. But haven't seen any softbody flesh that dynamically rips and deforms from blunt trauma.

 

[Billy Idol]

I am perhaps writing in the wrong forum ?
But what ever hapend to the technology of " body part " damage?
I do know of a few old games that has quite exact damage, exemple you are shoot in your leg and your figure gets limp in the hurt leg.
Even in the PS1 era there where games that had " realistic " body damage.
Like Toshinden and MGS3 on the PS2 also had some type of hit detection and resulting damage . Now if the PS1 and PS2 have the cpu power to emulate specific damage surly the PS3, Xbox 360 should allow for excellent detection down to the little finger ?
Is it a massive undertaking too realy build systems for this ? Or did developers simply forget about it? Its a shame because it can and will ad lots of new game play elements.

did you try out Killzone 2, for me their hit-detection system +reaction system is very advanced and as a result very satisfying.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I agree w/ your later statements, and Euphoria is nice but I thought it got in the way of GTA IV mainly because I didn't enjoy the way Niko moved due to his being too tied to the physics engine rather than having snappier custom animations. There are parts that I thought euphoria actually helped, and these include NPCs, having Niko's feet align w/ stairs, and the drunken staggering moments. Otherwise, the guy felt like a freight-train compared to player characters in other games, and this is not fun.

I think physics for the player character should take second fiddle to handtuned game play, althought I wouldn't mind seeing more realistically modelled NPC actions and death / other non-controllable animations standard in the future.

I have to very earnestly disagree here (or rather simply express my more contrarian opinion). I very much liked the use of Euphoria in a game like GTAIV, the blending of more physics-based animation made Niko feel much more realistic, even if he was sloth-slow.

I don't believe his slowness however was an unintended result of using euphoria for the main character's animations, but rather an entirly intentional attempt to make the character feel much *realistic* in the context of the game-world he inhabited.

I really liked the fact that Niko didn't dash around like mastercheif. It showed that he isn't some super gene-modified mega-warrior from the future, but a normal guy who most likely isn't very fit. It made you rely more on the use of the vehicles the game provides... i mean after all it is called "Grand Theft Auto".

It became readily apparent to me how much i think euphoria was required for Niko in GTAIV after i played Saint's Row 2. As much as that game was feature & content rich, and wickedly fun to play, it also felt like a last-gen game with next-gen visuals... in terms of physics and animations, not even in the same class as GTAIV.

I'm in the camp of those who will buy every Rockstar game now that uses euphoria for animations and their rage engine physics systems. No other game world this gen has felt as alive as GTAIV and RDR (yes even assassin's creed 1&2).

 

[Prophecy2k]

did you try out Killzone 2, for me their hit-detection system +reaction system is very advanced and as a result very satisfying.

I can get well behind this sentiment.

Playing KZ2 at some points really terrified me the way some of those Higs caught my shrapnel

 

[Prophecy2k]

I have a question in line with the OP's....

Might a reason we are not seeing games with very realistic, physics-based, graphic character deformation/mutilation be because of the age ratings and target demos of games?

I'm sure publishers aren't keen on the backlash really realistic looking gorey games can get. I was fundamentally surprised personally that GOWIII and the infamous Helios head-ripping scene didn't get lambasted by the mainstream press... but my guess is that it was because it was a cut-scene/QTE and not something you do or see continually throughout the game.

I can really see MSG:R getting some flak when it comes out.

I think that games like Gears of War get away with their gore and exploding giblets because they look absolutely unrealistic and comical more than anything (reminds the player that "it's a game!!!!"... whereas GOWIII's Helios scene for me was actually a bit hard to watch...

 

[Danalys]

I have to very earnestly disagree here (or rather simply express my more contrarian opinion). I very much liked the use of Euphoria in a game like GTAIV, the blending of more physics-based animation made Niko feel much more realistic, even if he was sloth-slow.

I don't believe his slowness however was an unintended result of using euphoria for the main character's animations, but rather an entirly intentional attempt to make the character feel much *realistic* in the context of the game-world he inhabited.

I really liked the fact that Niko didn't dash around like mastercheif. It showed that he isn't some super gene-modified mega-warrior from the future, but a normal guy who most likely isn't very fit. It made you rely more on the use of the vehicles the game provides... i mean after all it is called "Grand Theft Auto".

It became readily apparent to me how much i think euphoria was required for Niko in GTAIV after i played Saint's Row 2. As much as that game was feature & content rich, and wickedly fun to play, it also felt like a last-gen game with next-gen visuals... in terms of physics and animations, not even in the same class as GTAIV.

I'm in the camp of those who will buy every Rockstar game now that uses euphoria for animations and their rage engine physics systems. No other game world this gen has felt as alive as GTAIV and RDR (yes even assassin's creed 1&2).

They've still got a lot to improve. Mostly when it comes to collisions. In Rockstar games it's like everything wants to fall over with the slightest brush. So they should have more weight and stability, but what would be nice would be a little AI in Euphoria where the character will lessen the collision. Simple example is walking into a wall, people don't walk into walls, if a person went up to a wall it would be to lean against it. If I accidently bumped into someone's shoulder they wouldn't fall over, they'd anticipate the blow or react quickly and roll with it as much as they could, I'd shift my body to lessen the blow as well. The player cannot control this because we do not have the tactile feed back of the instant of the collision we can only see the effects too late, so it needs to be automated, and contextual so you can tackle some one if they require tackling.

So I think Assassin's Creed did a better job of some physical human reactions. Since you could go through a crowd with out knocking everyone over or getting stuck.

Red Dead and GTA4 do have nice hit detection though, but the aiming system means you all to often are shooting people in the same places all the time.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Red Dead and GTA4 do have nice hit detection though, but the aiming system means you all to often are shooting people in the same places all the time.

Everything else you said i cannot agree with you more... i was wondering with the above however what it was about the aiming system that made you only shoot people in the same place all the time?

Rather curious as i don't believe that was my experience with GTAIV or any of the episodes.

 

[Danalys]

It's just a lot simpler to get someone near the centre of the screen, hold down L2 (I actual switched this to L1) and let the game auto follow the target. You can adjust a bit to get a head shot after that but you're more liable to miss or lose tracking and it takes more time than just firing more, and bullets are cheap. In RDR you can use Dead eye. but similarly reticule speed of movement is too slow to get to any particular spot on a person most of the time, and not worth the effort, unless you are one shotting a bear, taking of hats, or disarming.