First few GFX benches
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Slides said:
I don't know. My wife hates electronic games and when I first got a V5 I used her as a tester, toggling the AA on/off. She immediately noticed things in one of the Need for Speed games, such as a telephone/power line stretched over the road, fencing along the curb, etc. Of course she does have a good eye for things (such as men, cough, cough <g>).
RM. Andersson
Newcomer
At least for me it is like this:
If I dont know there are problems with the IQ I might not notice them at first.
But eventually I will see them. And after that I will se them every time I play a game. I will see problems with the picture such as jaggies or that it´s blurry. And if I know it would be better with a different card it will start to annoy me more and more every day.
And a few weeks later I can´t stand it anymore and I upgrade to the better card.
Regards!
If I dont know there are problems with the IQ I might not notice them at first.
But eventually I will see them. And after that I will se them every time I play a game. I will see problems with the picture such as jaggies or that it´s blurry. And if I know it would be better with a different card it will start to annoy me more and more every day.
And a few weeks later I can´t stand it anymore and I upgrade to the better card.
Regards!
Doomtrooper
Veteran
Reverend said:
I always had respect for your reviews, as you at least tried to get a baseline IQ and put some content into them with screen shots, something lacking in todays reviews..besides B3D..Hothardware etc...very rarely any screen shots.
All I asked initially was why you never reviewed any IHV and got some snappy replies about poor relations other IHVs.
Doomtrooper
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Slides said:
Depends on the game...a game like BF 1942 driving in the tank without AA looks like crap..in first person shooters I tend to agree..too fast. A game like Dungeon Siege looks alot better with AF...or NWN with AA and AF.
I think it's a matter of "unlearning" and learning as well.
To those that have always been interested in 3D technology, aliasing and lack of less-blurry filtering have always been known to them. There is no "unlearning" for them - they know and have never accepted rendering imperfections.
To those that have always looked at PC graphics as nothing more than "something that displays images for me to play games", both aliasing and blurry filtering is perhaps not noticed, or maybe sub-consciously they do notice them ("Hmm... that's not like in real life") but they have "learned" to accept them as part of PC graphics or have learned to ignore them (both accepting and ignoring having the same result). i.e. "That's the way it is". These folks have much "unlearning" to do since they do not know these really are imperfections and are not to be accepted and/or ignored.
As usual, once someone brings such imperfections to everyone's notice, it becomes impossible to ignore or accept anymore.
I don't think many can make the distinction between curing graphics imperfections and advancing graphics quality.
In my various V5 reviews/articles, I was positive that many folks had this "ignore/accept" mentality about aliasing and strived to make my reviews/articles different, informative and a "learning/unlearning" experience. Heck, I remember Bubba Wolford (then one of the 3dfx PR guy) emailing me "Man, that was awesome dude... I am down with that!" when he saw that java applet of mine depicting split-screen AA/NoAA rotating NFS Porsche in my V5 PCI review. I also believe I was amongst the first to enthuse about the difference the original GeForce's 8-tap AF made to IQ.
OK, enough time on the pedestal already
To those that have always been interested in 3D technology, aliasing and lack of less-blurry filtering have always been known to them. There is no "unlearning" for them - they know and have never accepted rendering imperfections.
To those that have always looked at PC graphics as nothing more than "something that displays images for me to play games", both aliasing and blurry filtering is perhaps not noticed, or maybe sub-consciously they do notice them ("Hmm... that's not like in real life") but they have "learned" to accept them as part of PC graphics or have learned to ignore them (both accepting and ignoring having the same result). i.e. "That's the way it is". These folks have much "unlearning" to do since they do not know these really are imperfections and are not to be accepted and/or ignored.
As usual, once someone brings such imperfections to everyone's notice, it becomes impossible to ignore or accept anymore.
I don't think many can make the distinction between curing graphics imperfections and advancing graphics quality.
In my various V5 reviews/articles, I was positive that many folks had this "ignore/accept" mentality about aliasing and strived to make my reviews/articles different, informative and a "learning/unlearning" experience. Heck, I remember Bubba Wolford (then one of the 3dfx PR guy) emailing me "Man, that was awesome dude... I am down with that!" when he saw that java applet of mine depicting split-screen AA/NoAA rotating NFS Porsche in my V5 PCI review. I also believe I was amongst the first to enthuse about the difference the original GeForce's 8-tap AF made to IQ.
OK, enough time on the pedestal already
Slides said:
Ive been playing Video games since Pong. (I am part of the first generation of true video gamers, not the current crop thats come along).
Ive loved every generation and the advances that come with it.
Currently, I play every game at a minimum of 1280x960 @32Bpp with 4XAA and 8XAF on my R9700Pro, 21" Trinitron and P4 2.8Ghz setup.
Average gamer? Yes those people dont run any AA or AF nor run any higher than 1024X768 usually. Its fun to take those people and sit them down and let them play with eye candy turned on.
Once you get used to playing with AF & AA, you dont turn them off. Considering on FPS Im usually sniping, I see jaggies and blurred textures as a distraction, in driving games, I wanna see the yellow lines, not a yellow blob.
Spoiled? Yes I am, thankfully my wife likes the computers at home as well. Of course her XP2000+ TI4400 is overkill for Sims Online.
Nice specs you have their jandar, but like a lot of people, I certainly have a much less powerful system. And I also have an nvidia card, so upping the resolution is a much better way for getting rid of jaggies for me rather then using slow AA.
Don't get me wrong, good IQ with acceptable fps is something I look for when purchasing a new video card, but I certainly do not examine every single pixel in a game for any graphical anomaly. The example posted above of the difference between 2x AA and no AA simply does not cut it for me. If it hadn’t been for the AF, there would be virtually no difference between the SS’s.
My next video card might be an ATI, not because I think their 4xAA is so great, but because I might be able to afford a DX9 capable card with good frame rates for Doom III based games. The GFX is going to be out of reach for quite some time but that has more to do with price vs. performance, rather than performance vs. IQ.
Don't get me wrong, good IQ with acceptable fps is something I look for when purchasing a new video card, but I certainly do not examine every single pixel in a game for any graphical anomaly. The example posted above of the difference between 2x AA and no AA simply does not cut it for me. If it hadn’t been for the AF, there would be virtually no difference between the SS’s.
My next video card might be an ATI, not because I think their 4xAA is so great, but because I might be able to afford a DX9 capable card with good frame rates for Doom III based games. The GFX is going to be out of reach for quite some time but that has more to do with price vs. performance, rather than performance vs. IQ.
2X AA is a huge difference. Simply upping the resolution does not negate the need for AA, and never will.
That screenshot is a poor example of AA benefits, because 1. High compression 2. Low edge detail (contrast with say, BF1942, where it's actually disconcerting without AA) 3. It's static -- aliasing looks much worse when it's jittering all over the screen at 60fps.
Right now I only enable AA when I can afford the speed hit, so generally it's with less demanding games. I highly commend ATI for the leaps and bounds they've made with AA and AF performance, rather than only caring about pure poly pushing power. The day where both features are on by default is not far off. Then we can all enjoy much crisper, jaggy-free games, whether we are consciously aware of it or not.
That screenshot is a poor example of AA benefits, because 1. High compression 2. Low edge detail (contrast with say, BF1942, where it's actually disconcerting without AA) 3. It's static -- aliasing looks much worse when it's jittering all over the screen at 60fps.
Right now I only enable AA when I can afford the speed hit, so generally it's with less demanding games. I highly commend ATI for the leaps and bounds they've made with AA and AF performance, rather than only caring about pure poly pushing power. The day where both features are on by default is not far off. Then we can all enjoy much crisper, jaggy-free games, whether we are consciously aware of it or not.
790 said:
I have been waiting for this day for along time.
Imo, for those that normally play games with no AA and AF (usually cause their setup can't handle it), usually don't find AA + AF a big deal. But.... I guarantee you, once you get used to playing with AA + AF on, there is just no going back to jaggies and blurry textures. Period. Of course, jmho.
Its like DVD's, I still have mates that can't see the point in buying a DVD player, casue they think VHS is good enough. Sure its good enough, but once you get used to DVD, there is just no going back to VHS.
You make it sound like an innocent question from you and a lying reply from me. The truth is that you already had me framed as a NVIDIA fan before you asked me why I don't cover non-NVIDIA companies. All because of the fact that I cover almost exclusively NVIDIA.Doomtrooper said:
The truth is that I had poor relations with non-NVIDIA IHVs (but not for lack of trying)... you asked me for the reason and I told you and it appears you don't believe me. Another recent example was when I approached Sapphire for a 9xxx product for review with VE... no reply.
Perhaps these vendors think like you, Doom... maybe all they see is my summarized "resume" (showing mostly NVIDIA product reviews, articles, interviews) instead of actually reading my reviews. I can understand that... but pro-NVIDIA that does not make me. You remind me of Derek Perez (don't faint!) when I first got in touch with him (the original GeForce days)... when I asked him for a GeForce review unit, he told me he's scared to give me one because he thinks I'm pro-3dfx due to the fact that I have almost exclusively 3dfx reviews/articles at 3DPulpit. I told him "Is that what you think of me? Have you actually read everything I have to say about the 3dfx products I covered? Was I dishonest?" He went "Er...". So I told him "So Derek, here's a chance for a NVIDIA product to appear at my site's review page. You and I as well as the public know that there really isn't such a thing as a bad graphics card nowadays... it's all a matter of price, priorities and liveable compromises. As long as I report my opinions on these criterias honestly, what fear do you have of sending me a GeForce unit? Do you actually think I would bash it? There are no "bash-able" video card nowadays, Derek".
It took Chris Donahue, a friendly NVIDIA Dev Rel manager who actually read what I wrote about 3dfx and its products and knew I was a writer with honest opinions, to send me a Quadro. Chris read most of what I wrote while Derek only looked at my review/article index pages.
It also recently took sireric and ATI-ISV here to help push ATI to send me a 9700Pro (I asked them to help me out... ask them why they actually did... I'm not sure if it was the potentially vast VE exposure for ATI or if it was me to be honest but thanks guys!). I was also surprised to learn of the following - VE's business dev manager enquiring with ATI about their opinion of me as VE's hardware editor and being given a (surprisingly to me) thumbs up from ATI (I'd love to know who at ATI it was!).
I can try to improve my relations with many people but there is only so much I can do and if I don't get positive responses I would have to depend on other people to help me out. Remember that I am in Malaysia and phone calls are extremely expensive for these sort of public relations calls by which way phone calls, and not emails, will have much higher rates of success.
But you Doom, you had already painted me as pro-NVIDIA-and-anti-ATI/etc even before you asked me why I never covered anything non-NVIDIA (I'm too lazy to go searching for posts by you for proof of this) - instead, according to you, I am pro-NVIDIA based solely on the fact that I write about nothing but NVIDIA and/or its products. Just like the way Derek Perez thought back then re 3dfx. Just like the way folks who don't actually form opinions of me based on reading what I write but on the frequency of who I cover or don't cover.
In a hypothetical scenario, I would pity the three staff I have on my website where I assign each of them to handle different IHVs individually and independently (A to handle NV, B to handle ATI and C to handle Matrox, all exclusively). All three are good, impartial, honest guys but they will be labelled by folks like you as pro-XXX as a result of a way that I think was the best way to run a website. Like dev rel guy A assigned to handle EA and dev rel guy B cannot intefere... because of the frequency and exclusivity of EA coverage by A, he's pro-EA and anti all other development companies? But did A do a good job with EA?
This is why I have labelled you (deservingly so IMO) as immature, Doom. I know it's very touchy to call someone immature but that's the way I see you.
Doomtrooper
Veteran
Thats OK I feel young when people call me immature
...I just don't want to keep carrying on the insults and childish antics..so peace OK :?
I also PM'd and asked if you needed some help to possibly talk to the right people (I was sincere about it) and you said 'NO'...
It wasn't like I was going to throw that in your face ...ATI-ISV is a good guy and could have possibly had you talking to the right people earlier.
I have to say also that that ATI guys that are here and Rage3D are here on their own time and have made this forum and Rage3D a better place as the answers to certain questions are coming from the right people. (trade secrets of course are exempt)
They truly care..thats why they are here.
Anyhow..I hope in the end you now have the contacts to put up some other card reviews besides just NV...
I also PM'd and asked if you needed some help to possibly talk to the right people (I was sincere about it) and you said 'NO'...
It wasn't like I was going to throw that in your face
...ATI-ISV is a good guy and could have possibly had you talking to the right people earlier.I have to say also that that ATI guys that are here and Rage3D are here on their own time and have made this forum and Rage3D a better place as the answers to certain questions are coming from the right people. (trade secrets of course are exempt)
They truly care..thats why they are here.
Anyhow..I hope in the end you now have the contacts to put up some other card reviews besides just NV...
The one thing I will say is that I dont find the increase from 4x to 6x on the R300 that noticable. Coming from an 8500 thoughg even the 2xAA is worth it.
A friend who has a Gf3Ti200 has tried all the AA and AF modes and reckons he cant see any difference
Most people dont want to fiddle with settings - they want the game/drivers to set the IQ/performance balance for them.
At least the ATI overall 'performance/quality' slider is a step in the right direction. Do Matrox/nVidia/SiS have similar blanket AA/AF/LOD bias settings in their drivers?
A friend who has a Gf3Ti200 has tried all the AA and AF modes and reckons he cant see any difference
Most people dont want to fiddle with settings - they want the game/drivers to set the IQ/performance balance for them.
At least the ATI overall 'performance/quality' slider is a step in the right direction. Do Matrox/nVidia/SiS have similar blanket AA/AF/LOD bias settings in their drivers?
Reverend said:
Aahhh, yes, we remember! Great stuff back then, Rev., so that begs the question about who will bring this kind of effort forward next time? No need it shouldn't be here at beyond3d...
Anyway, the idea about looking at performance when image quality (AA, AF etc) is more or less on par is still brilliant. I understand the concern that DemoCoder has about it being too subjective but let's not do this more complicated then it really is.
So what if the R300's 4xAA is somewhere in between NV30's 4xAA and 6xAA while the AF might be a tad better on the NV30? Find the spot where they are pretty much on par and benchmark away (and don't forget those min FPS!). While difficult for the reviewer (who might start a fanboi party), it will hold a lot merit for the consumer.
Peace then... just don't ever call me pro-NVIDIA again coz I have never liked their marketing/PR strategies, something the uninformed are easily influenced by. I don't like any one company but I do find things to like about most of all company's products.Doomtrooper said:Thats OK I feel young when people call me immature...I just don't want to keep carrying on the insults and childish antics..so peace OK :?
AF is a big deal and vastly increases image quality. By and large AA does nothing, you're better off just raising resolution. AA is not even the least bit useful until graphics cards can play NEW games at 1600*1200 maxed out with full AF. Granted if your monitor can't go above 1024, then AA is good for you... But why would you be pairing a $500 graphics card with a $50 monitor 
Many people can't hear the difference between a $20 Bose speaker and a $1000 tower, nor can they taste the difference between the food in a $5 all-you-can-eat buffet and what you get in a real restaurant. I suppose many people can't even see all the scanlines that are crawling all over their $50 interlaced Walmart TV. Most people either just have really bad senses, or they are just too incredibly lazy to even see what else is out there. I guess ignorance is bliss, but it seems like a pretty boring way to live... Either way, these settings are for those of us who are just a little bit more demanding.
Randell said:A friend who has a Gf3Ti200 has tried all the AA and AF modes and reckons he cant see any difference
Most people dont want to fiddle with settings - they want the game/drivers to set the IQ/performance balance for them.
Many people can't hear the difference between a $20 Bose speaker and a $1000 tower, nor can they taste the difference between the food in a $5 all-you-can-eat buffet and what you get in a real restaurant. I suppose many people can't even see all the scanlines that are crawling all over their $50 interlaced Walmart TV. Most people either just have really bad senses, or they are just too incredibly lazy to even see what else is out there. I guess ignorance is bliss, but it seems like a pretty boring way to live... Either way, these settings are for those of us who are just a little bit more demanding.
LeStoffer said:
Personally I'm against the reviewer imposing a subjective view of how they feel IQ matches up. IMO reviewer should provide a selection of performance numbers and image shots and let the readers decide.
Nagorak said:Granted if your monitor can't go above 1024, then AA is good for you... But why woud you be pairing a $500 graphics card with a $50 monitor
Many, many, rather expensive TFT's are maxed a 1280x1024 (or even 1024x768). You don't need to have a cheap monitor to be stuck at lower resolution - in fact, this was exactly one of the lines NVIDIA took on the importance of AA when launching GF4.
I enable 6xAA and 16xAF by default on my Radeon 9700 and only reduce them if the game becomes unplayable. That rarely happens, though. I also force vsync - can't stand tearing either. All these hit the fps to some degree but it's worth it.
Before the 9700 I would use 1600x1200 (no-AA), which is ok, but I was never impressed with nVidia AA. The fact that you can enable max AA/AF on the 9700 and maintain a good speed is very impressive.
There is also the problem of menus that "shrink" as you increase the res! 1024x768 is ideal in Morrowind, but move to high-res and you get the incredible shrinking menuâ„¢
I prefer AA in this situation, not to mention that 6xAA looks much better than ANY res you could use - even 2048x1536.
Before the 9700 I would use 1600x1200 (no-AA), which is ok, but I was never impressed with nVidia AA. The fact that you can enable max AA/AF on the 9700 and maintain a good speed is very impressive.
There is also the problem of menus that "shrink" as you increase the res! 1024x768 is ideal in Morrowind, but move to high-res and you get the incredible shrinking menuâ„¢
I prefer AA in this situation, not to mention that 6xAA looks much better than ANY res you could use - even 2048x1536.
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