FF:CC not turn-based and supports 4 players...wooohooo!!

[LogisticX]

People need to stop dogging FF8 really

Anyway, with the new FF....sure there are a lot of cutscenes, but these cutscenes are no more than the long text conversations you'd often get in the earlier titles....I don't know, I guess because you were reading instead of watching and listening, you didn't notice it?

Whatever the case, if a story has to be established, then I think its fine that FFX went the way it did... if you've got a short attention span and are trying to play RPGs then I think you need to look elsewhere.

 

[Tagrineth]

People need to stop dogging FF8 really

Some people do it for a good reason...

 

[LogisticX]

Keyword being SOME I suppose.

 

[Logan Leonhart]

There were three SNES FF's, and they were effectively the same as the "modern" FF's.

The only difference is that FF8's design team spend 99% of their time on the graphics, 1% on the music, and wrote off the story and skill system altogether.

Pfft, I know that. However, the only titles that made it were FFIV and FFVI (How can THIS one be almost the fan favorite, I don´t know). I really don´t understand why people prefer little sprites that resort jumping and spinning due to a complete lack of experession (coupled with badly written dialogue) to a cinema that hosts high poligon characters, with a much better translated dialogue, coupled with facial expressions. The power of nostalgia...

And if you truly think that about FFVIII, what a stupid position you´re holding there, seriously. FFVIII is a beautifull game, with the most complex and flexible battle system that has ever appeared in the series, and features a rich love story told through deep characters, not to mention the amazing graphics and excellent music.

And isn´t it ironic that 90% of the people that hate FFVIII or FF games alltogether happen to be Nintendo fans or Xbox fans? Another tune they would be singing if it was an exclusive of their respective consoles..

 

[BenSkywalker]

And isn´t it ironic that 90% of the people that hate FFVIII or FF games alltogether happen to be Nintendo fans or Xbox fans?

I don't think it's irony, it is rather quite logical. Those people that enjoyed FMV sequences in games had one choice last generation(well, besides the ill fated Saturn) and they went with the PSX. Those that valued gameplay first tended to move to either the PC or the N64(or both or all three).

FFVII failed to not only not improve upon FFVI, it couldn't match it in terms of gameplay elements despite having a much larger budget. How many hours were wasted on the FMV sequences that could have gone toward making the game better?

Presentation/theme vs substance/gameplay. It's the same reason you don't see all that many Cube/XBox users all that upset that GTA3 isn't headed towards their systems(with the exception of increasing the potential insalled base). It isn't irony, it is a different set of priorities on gaming. Did you hear all that much hype about MGS2 Substance for the Box? I forgot it as coming out until a couple of week ago and it didn't manage close to the excitement of Splinter Cell.

I really don´t understand why people prefer little sprites that resort jumping and spinning due to a complete lack of experession (coupled with badly written dialogue) to a cinema that hosts high poligon characters, with a much better translated dialogue, coupled with facial expressions. The power of nostalgia...

Last played through FFVI about six months ago IIRC(it was earlier this year, in the summer IIRC). Its visuals held up better then Gran Turisimo2(ugghhh). As far as text being utilized to portray a story- nigh unthinkable today the way you make it sound. There was one title that did just that that didn't seem to hurt by it, Metroid Prime. Given all the GOTY awards it has landed I'd say FMV is far from required even today.

 

[LogisticX]

Well first of all, I'm not saying text is bad, but you're point with Metroid Prime is baseless, it isn't what is considered a console RPG.

Now you go from slandering FFVIII to GTA3 and I guess even as far as MGS2...when you want to bring an arguement to the table, at least make sure it holds some water....what you talk about is nothing but heresay.


People who owned PSX's didn't "value" gameplay first? Where do you get off saying that garbage?

I remember how happy most were that Capcom managed to squeeze those FMV sequences in RE2 into the N64 cartridge version.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Now you go from slandering FFVIII to GTA3 and I guess even as far as MGS2...when you want to bring an arguement to the table, at least make sure it holds some water....what you talk about is nothing but heresay.

None of those games have stellar gameplay, and my views on those titles(which go well below the less then stellar remark) are well known by most of the regulars here. As far as being a heretic, maybe on a PS2 forum but not here

People who owned PSX's didn't "value" gameplay first? Where do you get off saying that garbage?

Some did I'm sure, but the masses tend not to. Resident Evil is another title that plays horribly that tore up the sales chart on the PSX. Truly great playing games, even looking just at RPGs, DragonWarrior VII didn't sell crap in the US. To me the fact that any of the last gen FinalFantasy games outsold DW speaks volumes about where PSX owners priorties were when it came to RPGs. I can only think of one major hit on the PSX that played great off the top of my head, GT.

I remember how happy most were that Capcom managed to squeeze those FMV sequences in RE2 into the N64 cartridge version.

How many units did it sell on the N64 compared to the PSX? Factor in the installed base rift and the quantity of titles available and by comparison it did quite poorly.

 

[Tagrineth]

Pfft, I know that. However, the only titles that made it were FFIV and FFVI (How can THIS one be almost the fan favorite, I don´t know). I really don´t understand why people prefer little sprites that resort jumping and spinning due to a complete lack of experession (coupled with badly written dialogue) to a cinema that hosts high poligon characters, with a much better translated dialogue, coupled with facial expressions. The power of nostalgia...

You make it sound like Ted Woolsey did a poor job translating FFVI. Have you even PLAYED the game? It's probably one of the best official translations ever. I played through (most of) the game again recently, how does nostalgia factor in? The dialogue is fantastic in FFVI. And if you think the graphics are bad, you need a head check. Besides that, FFVI didn't have jumping and spinning characters for the most part. Characters DID show expressions... embarrassment, surprise, laughter... granted it wasn't in 15,267,250*8,251,885 resolution with perfect Phong shading, several pixel shaders, ray tracing, and 1,724,834,551,002 sample anti-aliasing, but WHO THE HELL CARES? It gets the job done.

And if you truly think that about FFVIII, what a stupid position you´re holding there, seriously. FFVIII is a beautifull game, with the most complex and flexible battle system that has ever appeared in the series, and features a rich love story told through deep characters, not to mention the amazing graphics and excellent music.

Uh... complex and flexible battle system? Flexible? What? I can attach three commands at a time to my character, and have 100 charges MAX per spell? Magic being horribly useless in that game anyway, aside from Aura. GFs being SEVERELY broken, as well. Complex? Um, what? It's the same as the four FF games that preceded it! And yet it ends up being MORE abusive (Limit Breaks - let's just keep hitting Triangle until we hear a 'ding' huh?) and MORE broken.

Deep characters? If you say so, the only character depth I could discern was Irvine breaking down when he had to shoot Edea, other than that Squall was a total asshole, Rinoa was very overenthusiastic, Zell was just plain hyper and hot-headed, Selphie is insane, and Quistis is just a little bit stuck-up. In battle, the sole distinction between any of the characters, really, is their Limit Breaks - with Junctioning, you can max out any stats you want with ludicrous ease, completely eliminating innate deficits (like Rinoa's base attack power).

Amazing graphics, duh, that's pretty much all they worked on the whole game. Music? I own FFVI and VII's soundtracks. I never considered buying FFVIII's. The music, while moderately cool sometimes, just isn't worth listening to much. And 'Eyes on Me' was annoying IMO.

Oh, then we have the awful, awful abuse of prerendered FMV. My GOD you can barely play 20 minutes without another FMV cutting in. The first part of the game, for example, has an FMV when you leave Balamb Garden for the first time - all it does is pan up to show you the Garden. Big fucking deal! It serves no purpose! And that continues throughout the game - useless filler FMV after useless filler FMV. Maybe 5/8 FMV's could have been removed with no ill effects.

And isn´t it ironic that 90% of the people that hate FFVIII or FF games alltogether happen to be Nintendo fans or Xbox fans? Another tune they would be singing if it was an exclusive of their respective consoles..

Uh, ok... I never had anything against PSX, just PS2. FFVII and FFIX were great... just FFVIII was utter garbage. It wasn't even fun to play, it was just DRAW, DRAW, DRAW, DRAW, DRAW... OK, done, SUMMON GF. Next battle. DRAW, DRAW, DRAW.. done, SUMMON GF. Boss! GF, GF, GF, GF, GF, GF, done. FMV!

 

[V3]

I think Square, needs to remove all the real time cut scenes and just pre-rendered them all. We will have multiple DVDs, but I think it will be worth it.

 

[marconelly!]

I will not argue about gameplay in MGS2 (which I think is absolutely stellar) or GTA3 with you anymore, I'm just arguing some obviously wrong assumptions you said about priorities.

It's the same reason you don't see all that many Cube/XBox users all that upset that GTA3 isn't headed towards their systems(with the exception of increasing the potential insalled base).

You obviosuly haven't been around TeamXbox much, have you? Topic of "when is GTA3 going to be on Xbox" was popping up ten times a day before it was announced exclusive, not to mention the major pissing contest after the announcement.

Did you hear all that much hype about MGS2 Substance for the Box?

Can you really expect much hype for a one year old port, no matter how good it is? Do you see much hype for Halo on PC?

I guess all those copies of Wreckless were being sold just because Xbox gamers' priorities were pure and unadulterated gameplay?

 

[BenSkywalker]

You obviosuly haven't been around TeamXbox much, have you? Topic of "when is GTA3 going to be on Xbox" was popping up ten times a day before it was announced exclusive, not to mention the major pissing contest after the announcement.

There is a poll going there right now and the majority of people that have responded/voted would not buy it if it were available. Not good evidence supporting your claim

Can you really expect much hype for a one year old port, no matter how good it is? Do you see much hype for Halo on PC?

Halo will be near two years old when it hits, and we will see how much hype it has. I'm willing to wager it is far more then MGS2 on the Box had.

I guess all those copies of Wreckless were being sold just because Xbox gamers' priorities were pure and unadulterated gameplay?

Wreckless was outsold by pretty much every other racing game on the Box, again, not a good comparison for your point. Point me to some FMV titles that tear up the charts on the XBox or Cube, there are plenty of them on the PS2.

 

[marconelly!]

There is a poll going there right now and the majority of people that have responded/voted would not buy it if it were available. Not good evidence supporting your claim

Did you expected an honest answer to that question, by any chance?

Two words Ben: Sour Grapes.

I'll just say again that you haven't been there back then where GTA3 was a possibility on the Xbox.

Halo will be near two years old when it hits, and we will see how much hype it has. I'm willing to wager it is far more then MGS2 on the Box had

Right now, noone seems to care about it, and as the time passes I don't see that changing a lot, especially with Doom 3 around, but we'll see.

Not to mention that it's below fanboy "pride" to root for a one year old port (MGS2) when there is a "killer" of that particular game being made!

Wreckless was outsold by pretty much every other racing game on the Box, again, not a good comparison for your point.

It sold much more than anyone with a sane mind expected, I'll get back to you once I find the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure it was more than Sega GT2002.

Point me to some FMV titles that tear up the charts on the XBox or Cube, there are plenty of them on the PS2.

Well, it's mostly games from certain few Japanese companies that contain lots of FMV, from what I can see, and we all know how those companies are supporting Xbox.

 

[BenSkywalker]

I'll just say again that you haven't been there back then where GTA3 was a possibility on the Xbox.

You said I hadn't been around TeamXBox, so I went there and mentioned what I could find about GTA3. Far from thundering demand I'd say

Right now, noone seems to care about it, and as the time passes I don't see that changing a lot, especially with Doom 3 around, but we'll see.

People talk about Doom3 a lot because of the graphics. I don't recall anyone expecting a great game from id on this one. We'll see how well it moves when it hits.

Not to mention that it's below fanboy "pride" to root for a one year old port (MGS2) when there is a "killer" of that particular game being made!

Sales show not much interest in the title, hype shows about no interest. If the game was great, it would do at least reasonably well, Splinter Cell or not.

It sold much more than anyone with a sane mind expected, I'll get back to you once I find the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure it was more than Sega GT2002.

SegaGT is likely well over 2million at this point, or are you limiting it to stand alone sales?

Well, it's mostly games from certain few Japanese companies that contain lots of FMV, from what I can see, and we all know how those companies are supporting Xbox.

I included the Cube in my statement for a reason. I want to know the name of a FMV title that has done well on a platform that wasn't made by Sony. Based on sales trends and gamers reactions PS2 owners care about FMV a lot more then those of other platforms.

 

[Peppermonkey]

People talk about Doom3 a lot because of the graphics. I don't recall anyone expecting a great game from id on this one. We'll see how well it moves when it hits.

I've always expected Doom 3 to be a great game... I don't know where you get this idea that no one expects a great game from id on this one.

I'm so hyped about this game.

 

[marconelly!]

You said I hadn't been around TeamXBox, so I went there and mentioned what I could find about GTA3. Far from thundering demand I'd say

OK, at least now I see that you are joking

Sales show not much interest in the title, hype shows about no interest. If the game was great, it would do at least reasonably well, Splinter Cell or not.

The game sold 4-5 million units worldwide on PS2. For such a niche genre that's really a lot, so it's reasonable to expect that almost anyone who wanted to play it, already did. The lack of sales (although I expect it to be over 100K at this point) and hype for Xbox version just prove that. Those 100K of sales look just right to me. That was the minor amount of people that refused to buy/rent PS2 to play the game, but still was interested in it.

SegaGT is likely well over 2million at this point, or are you limiting it to stand alone sales?

It's reasonable to limit it only to standalone sales, don't you think? That shows the actual consumer interest in a game. Now, they don't have any other choice but to get it, if they want an Xbox.

I included the Cube in my statement for a reason. I want to know the name of a FMV title that has done well on a platform that wasn't made by Sony. Based on sales trends and gamers reactions PS2 owners care about FMV a lot more then those of other platforms.

My point was that Square, Konami etc also have an anemic Cube support. There aren't to many quality productions on either Xbox or Cube that feature FMVs, so it's impossible to say would they sell well or not. I mentioned wreckless for that precise reason - it's a graphics tech demo more than a game and it sold pretty damn well. You can almost say the same for Rogue Leader.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I think it ties into Sony's game philosophy. I remember at one point in Takahashi's book the board members at Capcom asked the Xbox team what games meant to them. They said: "To Nintendo, game is toy. To Sony, game is entertainment. What is game to Microsoft?" Samus wanted them to answer "Game is art," but a translation error made MS out to look like idiots.

Sony is an entertainment company. Movies and Music are pretty huge areas of their business. It makes sense for them to leverage that in their games. The emphasis on FMV in a lot of PS2 titles seems to bare that out. Sony's big advantage is that they understand how to best present non-interactive content. This is a big part of their games philosophy I would say. A lot of PS2 titles have good "polish".

Analyzing Microsoft's game philosophy over the past 12 months would lead you to the conclusion that Samus Blackley is full of shit. Very few Xbox games are "art". Halo is entertainment, JSRF is art, Panzer Dragoon Orta is art, Splinter Cell and MechAssault are entertainment.

You probably could come up with an argument that to Microsoft, Game is science, based around Halo, Amped, Wreckless, Splinter Cell, MechAssault, Live, and so on. I think it would be more accurate.

 

[marconelly!]

I would agree with Johnny about the whole Game is Art thing from Microsoft. It turned out to be a pretty bullshit statement (actually, several game releases from Sony 1st party teams could much better fit into that category), but that doesn't necessairly mean that Blackley wasn't serious about it. It's just that he was a pion, like most people in the Xbox project team - he was useful for talking to developers, then put aside, before he decided to quit - much like other original enthusiasts behind Xbox project.