EE Times on ATI going for consoles, cell phones, set-tops

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http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030304S0007


ATI aims for cellphone, set-top and console

By Rick Merritt

EE Times
March 4, 2003 (9:32 a.m. EST)


REDWOOD CITY, Calif. — As dessert arrives, David Orton steps outside the hotel banquet room to make a quick cellphone call. The president of ATI Technologies Inc. wants to check whether he can make an announcement at the intimate press dinner he is hosting on the eve of the Game Developers Conference this week.
It might be the company's first design win in a cellphone, or a deal to partner on a next-generation Xbox or GameCube console. But this is not the night for whatever big news Orton is anticipating.

Undeterred, Orton returns to the table to talk about his company's progress as it seeks to "capture the flag" in graphics in and beyond the PC. "This company will become a PC and consumer company making discrete and integrated graphics chips, and in 2004 ATI will become a visual computing company beyond the PC. We've got to get into a faster growing part of the market," he vowed.




Specifically, ATI aims to earning as much as 10 percent of its more than $1 billion in revenues from consoles, cellphones and set-top boxes by the end of its fiscal year in August. That's up from about 5 percent of non-PC business today.

To that end, Orton said ATI (Markham, Ontario) already has its first design wins for graphics in high-end cellphones based on the company's Imageon 100, a 2D graphics and MPEG-4 decode chip launched last year. Those phones should ship in the next six months. The chip is already shipping in PDAs from Sharp and Toshiba.

Orton said videoconferencing will be big for business phones, driving the need for both MPEG4 encode and decode. Consumer phones ultimately will need some level of 3D support, he added.

As for consoles, he hopes to leverage ATI's separate east and west coast graphics design teams to snag deals to provide chips both to Microsoft's as well as Nintendo's next-generation consoles. (ATI already provides graphics technology in Nintendo's current GameCube, a deal Orton won as chief executive of ArtX, which ATI purchased nearly three years ago.)

"Anyone who wants to hit 2005 [with a new console] better make some decisions quickly. We think they need to decide soon or wait until 2006 to ship," Orton said.

The nex-generation Sony Playstation is "already sewn up" with partners IBM and Toshiba building a so-called Cell chip apparently based on a massively parallel array of general-purpose processors. "Our belief is Sony won't go with pixel shading, but will make every pixel a polygon and throw polygons at the problem. It's a different philosophy," Orton said.

But that's not optimal for graphics processing that requires a variety of specialized polygon and rendering engines, he said. And programmers will need a new environment that shields them from such massive parallel processing, he added.

Meanwhile, ATI and its archrival Nvidia Corp. (Santa Clara, Calif.) is expected to go head-to-head this week rolling out new versions of their desktop PC graphics chips, a market where ATI hopes to jump from about a 26 percent to a 40 percent share, wresting the number one spot away from Nvidia.

At the same time, both companies are coming to grips with a PC market shifting toward low-end integrated chip sets with graphics. Both ATI and Nvidia launched such products last year, though ATI has an edge as the only company of the two with a license to build chip sets for Intel's Pentium processors.
 
The nex-generation Sony Playstation is "already sewn up" with partners IBM and Toshiba building a so-called Cell chip apparently based on a massively parallel array of general-purpose processors. "Our belief is Sony won't go with pixel shading, but will make every pixel a polygon and throw polygons at the problem. It's a different philosophy," Orton said.

I think people are in for a bit of a shock when they see the PS3.

Sony invested in Stanford Shading Language, and I'm sure they are noticing the shading language benefits to developers.

Thinking that Sony will still use brute force to achieve great graphics is a bit naive.

Also the drawbacks of using parallel processing have been noted with past consoles (Sega) and I'm pretty sure they are aware of it. I'm not sure how they will shield developers from this but it should be a priority.

Speng.
 
I doubt orton would be totally clueless about the situation, he probably knows more about the next gen console possibilities than anyone here. Not saying he's right, or that the situation wont change (we're far from ps3's release afterall), but he certainly aint talking bullshit for the hell of it.

Nvidia seems to also know quite a lot about sony's plans somehow..

With regard to XBox, said the arbitration process has ultimately helped relationship with MSFT, but when asked about XBox2 he was very ambivalent and said that it represented a significant "technology risk" to any company that undertook the challenge. Uncharacteristically lavished praise on Sony's upcoming PS3 and its cell processor, insinuating that it would almost be miraculous to outdo it.
 
Sorry to say, but he does sound kinda ignorant.

Im doubting a Cell will be able to do T&L, Sony will need something to do this.

So they will use the Graphics Synthesizer 3, which is suppost to launch 2005.

And I was listening to the Nvidia conference thing today, the president of Nvidia called the Ps3 a "Mirracle machine"
 
I'm not sure how they will shield developers from this but it should be a priority.

IBM is developing the software to do this, weather they are able to or not nobody knows, hopefully Sony will keep out of this part.

Personally I'm not sure how Sony is going to get aorund the devleopment problems for PS3 basically because the developers will have to start there work on it by early 2004, a long time before the hardware of the software is near completion. While it hasn't been much of a problem in the past, with growing hardware/software complexity it could be a real issue.
 
Thinking that Sony will still use brute force to achieve great graphics is a bit naive.

Nothing wrong with brute force. If you have a brute force solution that can compete with some of the other elegant solutions, the brute force will offer more flexibility, simply because it will have more general computation resources available.

Besides there is nothing wrong of using high polygon model that are used to generate the bump map in the pixel shading tech, if the resources are there.
 
I think he was misunderstood...

Pixar Renderman does basically what he said, btw... throwing tons of sub-pixel flat shaded polygons to compose the final picture... a basic summary, but that is what happens AFAIK...

Again, PS3 will have both CPU and GPU very flexible ( prorammable T&L and Rendering )... wether you make of every pixel a polygon or not will depend on the will of the developers, wether you call a PU working with 4 APUs as a Fragment Shading Pipeline or not it is your decision...

Thinkiing that PS3 will have a feature-set limited GPU like PS2 did ( relying on brute force ) I think they are going in for a serious disappointment...

"Our belief is Sony won't go with pixel shading

very generic statement... are you saying that the BE and the Visualizer, both programmable and versatile ( both based on Cell ), will not be able to do Pixel Math and run Shaders ? You are IN for a disappointment...
 
whoa that was a great rebuttal to what was said about PS3 not having pixel shaders.

i simply cannot wait for this machine. althought i dont like Sony much, i hope they put out a great console this time.
 
Why did Nvidia call ps3 the mirracle machine? How would Nvidia know what the ps3 is capable of or not? Are sony and Nvidia wroking together now or something?
 
....

Mr. Orton doesn't know more about CELL than any of us. The person who does know more about CELL outside of Sony is the IBM's vice president of technology("Blue Gene/L technology is the building foundation of next generation Sony console"), but people don't believe his word.....
 
Why did Nvidia call ps3 the mirracle machine? How would Nvidia know what the ps3 is capable of or not? Are sony and Nvidia wroking together now or something?

that was the thought 5-7 months ago. Nvidia assisting with the design of the Sony GS3/Visualizer GPU. It's not like Nvidia would ever provide a compete GPU for PS3, no way, because the GPU is a Sony in-house effort. however there are areas where Nvidia are better than Sony in terms of graphics, so perhaps Sony is seeking outside help. then again maybe not. it might be an all-Sony chip once again. we'll see.
 
7upac said:
Why did Nvidia call ps3 the mirracle machine? How would Nvidia know what the ps3 is capable of or not? Are sony and Nvidia wroking together now or something?

To deflect the blow that was not winning any designs on either Nintendo or MicroSoft next generation consoles.
 
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