DX10 (formerly WGF2.0, formerly DX10) will ship with Vista

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Thats great,fuck up drivers and DX and we'll be playing only brand new games. Release of XP already break many games and Vsita will go even futher. That sux. I don't know,am i the only one who still enjoy older games?
NFS4 was broken with release of XP,Half-Life 1 doesn't work anymore,legendary Mechwarrior 2 doesn't work,and loads of other games require hacks or patches. Integrated compatibility mode works in just few cases.
 
Chalnoth said:
SugarCoat said:
Do your games look ugly now? Are you disatisfied? Then one would hope you wouldnt care. If on the otherhand you are someone who spends 400-X amount of money a year upgrading graphic cards, i think you can handle the 120ish dollars for the accompying OS update thats going to last you another 4-6 years.
Okay, there's a monstrous difference here.

If, and I stress if (see my previous post) Microsoft only supports DirectX 10 on Vista, it'd be nothing like when I choose to upgrade my video card to play games better.

If Microsoft only supports DX10 on Vista, it will essentially be Microsoft saying, "Pay us money or don't play." Video cards are entirely different, because not only are fallbacks to older hardware ubiquitous in games, but we have two IHV's from whom to buy that hardware. That's the difference. With video cards I have a choice. Not only can I choose not to upgrade if I don't want to (and still play all games to be released for a reasonable time frame), but I can also choose who gets my money.

If Microsoft does make this move (which I think would be a bad move for them anyway), it's highly likely that I'll be upset enough to finally make the move to 100% linux.

No, it will be Microsoft saying "pay us or you wont get all these new things we now support". Its the exact same thing nVidia or ATI does with a card supporting a new DX model. While older cards will technically run the newest DX versions, you lack the improvments that a new card brings. There for if you want them you go out and pay for them, or you dont. As i said, i strongly believe that OS's are the best bang for buck in terms of how long they last for the user. Microsoft is trying to make a rather major transition in how graphic cards are used by not only the OS itself but games as well. This may not be overly visable now, but 5 years from now im willing to bet WGF will be one of the best things to happen to games since the 3D accelerator.

The problem i think you and alot of other people are going to have is that DX has always been backward compatable and usable on just about every OS they've released. Its been this way for quite awhile, however they decided its time for major changes, not minor. So this is what happens. As i said, i hardly see the worth in complaining for something thats going to last 5 years easily and costs less then 3 MSRP PC games. If you're a serious gamer or a hardware enthusiast you simply have nothing to complain about. If you arent in that catagory, i hardly see what you're going to care being stuck with DX9.X until you want to make the leap to Vista. Besides the fact that you were spoiled by how DX was working, this is perfectly acceptable in the computer world. Will it make OpenGL come back in serious force? Doubtful. I think game developers are going to welcome WGF and its changes with open arms most certainly.
 
Right, from a cost standpoint, it's not a big deal. It's more because if I want to play new games using the latest technology, I'd have absolutely no choice. This isn't the case today.

Today, if I want to play games at high performance with the latest technology, I have a lot of choices:
I can choose AMD or Intel.
I can choose nVidia or ATI.
I can choose a number of motherboard chipset manufacturers.
I can choose even more board vendors (video, sound, motherboard).

But when it comes to the OS, there's only one choice: Microsoft. This I absolutely and completely despise, and thus I want to avoid paying Microsoft any money whenever possible.

That said, if they released Windows Vista, and I saw it as an OS that offered real advantages that had nothing to do with software requiring the OS to run with all options turned on, I might consider getting over it and buying the OS. But, as it stands, if Vista does indeed ship with its own, exclusive API, it may be enough for me to want to deal with the hassle of making a full switch to Linux and Cedega (or something similar).
 
An API is never exclusive. In the case of WGF 2.0 the runtime is the Problem. WGF needs a new runtime system. You can call this middleware if you want. DX support for older Windows version was always only a good will action from MS. If you want the new features from a new version of your favorite image software you need a update. Is this programm is a commercial software you have to pay for this update.

Cedega is no sollution for your problem. The current version still supports no shader beyound 1.3. If you look add the bussines model that Cedega use you can see that they have no interest in give you a full implementation of DX9 very soon.

You can try to find some developers that write you a WGF 2.0 runtime for Windows XP.
 
I dont mind new Windows, it gets the average joe to upgrade and therefore bump up the base line on computers, and that means software that can be more demanding.
 
Skrying said:
I dont mind new Windows, it gets the average joe to upgrade and therefore bump up the base line on computers, and that means software that can be more demanding.
New Windows is fine! Hell, if anything Micrsoft is too slow in updating Windows.

The problem is when Microsoft attempts to implement changes that will force people to upgrade to the new OS.

I guess what I'm saying is, in an ideal world, the core of the OS (the API interfaces) would be updated for all users. It really just grates on me that Microsoft wouldn't update the API's for older versions. I think the new versions of the OS should live and die by the things the OS can do for me (User interface, filesystem setup, stuff like that), not by the things that Microsoft can lock out of previous OS's.
 
Temporary Name said:
...most other companies, however, genuinely love you and are willing to make sacrifices to brighten your day.

Most other companies don't have a monopoly and billions of dollars.
 
ANova said:
Temporary Name said:
...most other companies, however, genuinely love you and are willing to make sacrifices to brighten your day.

Most other companies don't have a monopoly and billions of dollars.

If you can use Linux and MacOS X then there is no such thing as a monopoly. I don't care what the US government says, they are driven by special interest groups.
 
Not legally.

100% marketshare is only a pure monopoly, which basically never happens unless it is sanctioned legally. In other words, I doubt any lawsuit has ever been levied against a pure monopoly.

From http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Monopoly :
Primary characteristics of a monopoly

1. Single Seller
* In a pure monopoly is an industry in which a single firm is the sole producer of a good or the sole provider of a service. This is usually caused by a blocked entry
2. No Close Subsititutes
* The product or service is unique.
3. Price Maker
* In a pure monopoly a single firm controls the total supply of the whole industry and is able to exhert a significant degree of control over the price, by changing the quantity supplied.
4. Blocked Entry
* The reason a pure monopolist has no competitors is that certain barriers keep would be competitors from entering the market. Depending upon the form of the monopoly these barriers can be economic, technological, legal, or of some other type of barrier that completely prevents other firms from entering the market
I'd say Microsoft fills all counts.
 
Proforma said:
If you can use Linux and MacOS X then there is no such thing as a monopoly. I don't care what the US government says, they are driven by special interest groups.

Well there is the fact that games are not available to Linux nor OSX in any real quantity. Then there's the fact that the majority of programs available today (80%+) are for windows. And then there's the fact that Linux doesn't support nearly as many file types as windows. The list goes on. I mean, it is rather obvious, isn't it?
 
What i diasagree with is your statement of 50%.

With my lack of lack of legal knowlege in the matter, I can and will not disagree with your last post.
 
rendezvous said:
What i diasagree with is your statement of 50%.

With my lack of lack of legal knowlege in the matter, I can and will not disagree with your last post.
By the way, reading further, a bit of history on antitrust law:
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Standard_Oil

It seems that Microsoft is quite similar in terms of marketshare, as well as other things, to the initial cause of antitrust law, Standard Oil.
 
Chalnoth said:
Today, if I want to play games at high performance with the latest technology, I have a lot of choices:
I can choose AMD or Intel.
I can choose nVidia or ATI.
I can choose a number of motherboard chipset manufacturers.
I can choose even more board vendors (video, sound, motherboard).

But when it comes to the OS, there's only one choice: Microsoft. This I absolutely and completely despise, and thus I want to avoid paying Microsoft any money whenever possible.

...

Talk about segmented thinking, it's contradictions like this which demonstrate the folly of compartmentalized perception...;)

The fact is that if not for the second paragraph above the first wouldn't be true; yet, amazingly, you don't see any linkage between them.

There's a reason there's "only one choice" for a mainstream x86 OS. It's because nobody else aside from Microsoft has ever invested more than a fraction of the total resources and development effort that Microsoft has put into supporting the x86 hardware paradigm as it has emerged in the last two decades. IBM with OS/2 was the closest historical competitor, but its investements and developer efforts with OS/2 were but a shadow of Microsoft's--so it's no wonder the effort failed and hardly a surprise that IBM quit with OS/2 years ago.

Every other company which might've competed with Microsoft 20 years ago in the emerging x86 markets--companies like SUN, Apple, and Commodore, to name a few--avoided x86 like the plague and instead spent all their money and time chasing their own custom hardware platforms and were quite content to leave x86 to Microsoft alone. In 1985 that strategy made a lot of sense, as "x86" then was fragmented from a hardware perspective and PC-DOS or MS-DOS software that would run fine on an IBM would not run on a Tandy, or HP, and vice-versa.

What happened was that all of the disparate x86 hardware OEMs discovered that their only hope of success was found in Microsoft, since Microsoft alone was willing to develop OS's supporting the x86 hardware they could legally sell (since obviously they couldn't clone Macs or Amigas or C64's, etc.)

So the major x86 OEMs steadily and progressively rallied around Microsoft and agreed upon set after set of x86 hardware standards which Microsoft in turn agreed to support for the benefit of all the x86 hardware OEMs. The result was that as the x86 hardware platform progressively standardized it opened up competitive possibilities for hundreds of new x86 hardware OEMs around the world that didn't exist before, which created a dynamic economic engine for competition among those OEMs, which in turn spurred a huge increase in the economies of scale relative to x86 hardware production such that x86 hardware production today easily dwarfs that of any other non-x86 platform or all other platforms combined. Microsoft's OS's have been the "glue" holding that huge x86 hardware market together.

So, the reason you have so much choice today in terms of hardware is because of the role Microsoft elected to play over the last 20 years--a role no company aside from Microsoft elected to play. IE, without MS's efforts you most likely today would not have the abundance of hardware choices you have, and the hardware you'd buy would likely cost much more than it does, and the software you could buy would likely be far less plentiful and cost much more--as was the case in 1985 when x86 was highly fragmented and so-called "IBM-PC compatible" boxes were incompatible with IBM PC's on a hardware basis, and each OEM's box required a different version of DOS to run. But today, "hardware choice" and "Microsoft" are literally indivisible in the context of your statement above.

As an anecdote--we can see that even though Apple has finally seen the light with respect to the x86 hardware paradigm (as Macs over the last ten years have been integrating off-the-shelf x86 tech progressively until now they are even going to be using x86 cpus exclusively), Apple's x86 version of OSX will be tied exclusively to the upcoming MacTels and won't even run on a non-Apple manufactured x86 box. Yet, even Apple has elected to adopt the current x86 hardware standards to the degree that Windows will run on a MacTel without requiring any special or custom Mac environment. Apple is still locked into the "custom-OS" paradigm even though its upcoming 100% x86 Macs will run Windows natively ROOB. Even today companies such as Apple refuse to undertake the degree of x86 hardware support that Microsoft provides. IMO, this to me makes it very likely that future Macs running Windows will be more numerous than future Macs running x86 OSX--but that's just my opinion, of course...;)

I guess, Chalnoth, that what I'm saying here is that your comments above are akin to "biting the hand that feeds you," as it seems to me...;)
 
Chalnoth said:
New Windows is fine! Hell, if anything Micrsoft is too slow in updating Windows.

The problem is when Microsoft attempts to implement changes that will force people to upgrade to the new OS.

I guess what I'm saying is, in an ideal world, the core of the OS (the API interfaces) would be updated for all users. It really just grates on me that Microsoft wouldn't update the API's for older versions. I think the new versions of the OS should live and die by the things the OS can do for me (User interface, filesystem setup, stuff like that), not by the things that Microsoft can lock out of previous OS's.


I think 8 years of DX support for every OS released past 95 qualifies them to do this. Look at how much they've done in all that time with how far games and graphics as well as general computing has come in those 8 years, that they have kept that OS compatable with all or most of it.

Everytime MS makes a decision that impacts something, for good or bad, there is always an outcry of their evil and monopolizing ways. While their OS's havent been perfect, i sure do think they do a damn good job. Grit your teeth, buy vista, and relax for a long time with the newest interface and updates. There will be plenty to come even after the OS has aged a few years, we all know that. Anyway thats how i look at it. Every penny i spend on an OS is by far a better cent spent then on a high end hardware update jump year to year.

Or you can be a rebel and try to convert people to your thinking.
 
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