DVDs are big enough for Next-Gen + File sizes for X360 launch games

Hardknock said:
inefficient, he's got to be talking about PC. I don't see how Xbox 360 or PS3 would have 2048x2048 textures, when they only output games at 720p?

textures will be downsized to 1024x1024 or 512x512 anyway, to be able to fit into the memory.
And as inefficient says you don't see all texture data at once. Moreover, high res is useful when you get close to the characters or walls, and texture data is nowadays used for normal mapping / parallax mapping as well, which reacts to lighting and is used to fake geometry detail. the 2048x2048 stuff for UE3 is about normal maps I think.
 
Phil said:
You, as others like Hardnock, are clearly missing the point. The argument was never if more space is needed - the argument was always that more space allows for more possibilities. Period.

And that argument is false. Period.

One of the main points of the article is that size != quality.

The biggest games have coinsistently been the worst games with a few notable exceptions. In general, last generation, disc-space-used had absolutely NO bearing on the size of a game, the 'possibilities' in the game, the quality of the graphics, the AI nothing.

Splinter Cell 3 is the only game I can think of that was >5gb and was actually a high quality game. Usually, the games with the biggest filesize, are shitty low-budget POS games, that's the simple truth.

Rounin: Thx for the disc spaces. With the 4 mentioned previously, that's an average of 5.24 which is not too bad, we can expect the average to probably push right up to the 8.5GB limit.

We'll probably be looking at the same 3% or so of games that go over, just like many of us have been saying forever.
 
rounin said:
Note that the sizes are of the game RARed. From experience, unRaring will usually add at least 1gig-2gigs to the size.

If it isn't too much trouble, could you give us a more accurate measurement? Maybe ask on said forum?

Thank you.
 
for god sake....


THINK 5 years from now!


kids with 12yrs age answer they dont need many condoms because they dont do sex and "its disgusting"....
Ask them the same question 5 years later.


you guys are soooo out of line here.... really.

imagine Ps2 or Xbox with CD-rom titles in 2005.... yet, ps2 in 99 lauched all games in cd-rom.

Thank GOD it had a DVD.
 
Part of the difficulty in what some people want to compare, PS2 vs XBOX sizes and then extrapolate those on to their respective follow-up consoles, is that while a PS2 game may have been 4.7GBs it was entirely possible that the same game for the XBOX would be significantly smaller maybe only 1-2GBs. I had thought I read here many many many times that this was do to the PS2 not having the compression schemes that the xbox had, so while GTA took up an entire disc on the PS2 it only used half the space (if that) on the XBOX.

Even as a 360 owner, I can't disagree with the PS3 bretheren saying that it gives you more options, I don't think anyone can disagree with that. I also don't think we can look at the early games as any indication of what filesizes will be. As someone who formerly had a modded xbox, I can tell you that gameplay-wise, graphics-wise, and fun factor-wise, those had nothing to do with filesize. I was amazed sometimes when I would drop a game to the hard drive assuming it would be GBs and GBs only to find out it was like 1.2GB.

Also, to the person who said fuck next-gen to games like Condemned, YOU are the reason Majesco has left the console scene. EDIT: I was looking forward to Demonik!
 
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CD to DVD comparison is invalid. CD's had reached their limit on PS1 with many multi-disc games. 97% of DVD games last year used <1/2 of the disc space.

I have no doubt we'll see a couple multi-disc version of games, but so what. I don't expect to see any difference whatsoever in game quality, or 'possiblities' or any of this other crap.

The biggest difference will be japanese games packed with 1080p "true HD" CG cut-scense, and it will be used for marketing more than anything else. Meanwhile 360 will probably use 720p. Big Deal.
 
scooby_dooby said:
And that argument is false. Period.
Some fuzzy logic in this post. Just saying this gen, most large games have been rubbish, doesn't change the fact that with more space there's the definite possibility of using it to the games advantage, if nothing else to add more variety. eg. A 1GB level on DVD that spans 40 screens-worth of scenery by tiling the earlier graphics at the end fo the level, could be upped to 4 Gb on BRD and provide more variation in the graphics without repeating the earlier tiles etc.

As to whether this will happen or not, that's all down to speculation, and you can point to that not happening this time around as evidence that it doesn't matter. That doesn't change the fact that more space = more options though; a very valid argument.

Having now read the article, it's not a conclusive debate (shocker!). 50 ish percent increase isn't bad, but I think they underestimate how much resources can be gobbled up. The idea of better compression techs coming along to save the day sound iffy to me too. I can't see we're going to get any better compression. You've got limited lossless compression, or something like JPEG. If you want more compression it means losing more fidelity. I don't know that's there's any new ways to encode data so you don't suffer those quality losses.

If we take another consideration, rather than comparing launch title growth, compare XB360 to XB games in terms of estimated content size. If an XB game takes up 3 GB, XB360 at on average 4x the data size (more complex models, higher-res textures, yadayada) would be 12 GB. And that's not allowing for more diversity. Consider a game like Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance 2. There's a few levels in that with really dull repeating critters. Only like 2 monster types with a couple of variations. An XB360 version of that sort of game would take up several times the data with more detailed models and textures. Then if you add in more monster varieties you're taking up even more space. If the monsters have 4x the poly counts and 4x the texture size, and there's 3x as many monster varieties, that's a good 12x the storage requirements.
If you're only doubling the data sizes, aren't you limiting the increase of quality to 2-4x? Aren't we expecting an order of magnitude improvement into poly counts (model detail) and the like?
 
dskneo said:
for god sake....


THINK 5 years from now!


kids with 12yrs age answer they dont need many condoms because they dont do sex and "its disgusting"....
Ask them the same question 5 years later.


you guys are soooo out of line here.... really.

imagine Ps2 or Xbox with CD-rom titles in 2005.... yet, ps2 in 99 lauched all games in cd-rom.

Thank GOD it had a DVD.

Well, you also have to think that there many new techniques around the corner that could make huge impact on how you make games like procedural synthesis. Look at the screens below and tell with a straight face that that does not look impressive when you consider they come from a game that uses less space than 96kB...

full2.jpg

full1.jpg


full5.jpg
http://kk.kema.at/files/gfx/full5.jpg
 
I knew that call of Duty 2 was big. The PC version comes on 6 cd's. And there's no FMV.

Pretty much every real RPG next gen will be on multiple DVD's.
 
Well, you also have to think that there many new techniques around the corner that could make huge impact on how you make games like procedural synthesis. Look at the screens below and tell with a straight face that that does not look impressive when you consider they come from a game that uses less space than 96kB...
listen..... you want DVD-only games in you console 5 years from now?

i dont know about you guys, but 6 years ago i was happy with GD-rom from dreamcast and in denial about DVD in ps2.
6 years later, thank god im not a f.anboy anymore.

The bigger the better.
i dont know the needs required 5 years from now, and neither do you.
But the sure thing to say, is that a drive with 50gb is the safest Bet whether you like it or not.

excuses are just that
No way im gonna pay 400 bucks for something to last 5 years that doesn't have a proper future-safe format. Procedural texture my ass! thats what!

hell, just any format would do... bluray or not, space is space.
Never in my life i saw ppl defending a lesser format just "because"
your not gonna pay the new format in full! its a damn bargain good for you now, and 5 years from now too!
 
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Alstrong said:
calm down... please?

whos angry? :)

its my money they are talking about! lol

but i do admit the people that defend something that's not good for us 5 years from now just because the "other competiror" has a future-proof format and "they dont", are not in my top ten list of "smart" ppl... "

we dont need a sony-member card to buy the Ps3... its on the shelves for anybody to buy, and if its better suited to live this generation, anyone can buy it. Thats why i dont understand why ppl defend "lesser" producs (such as DVD) with excuses such as "oh procedural this, and that" (while forgeting the terrible framerates such technique causes)
 
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Platon said:
Well, you also have to think that there many new techniques around the corner that could make huge impact on how you make games like procedural synthesis. Look at the screens below and tell with a straight face that that does not look impressive when you consider they come from a game that uses less space than 96kB...

http://kk.kema.at/files/gfx/full5.jpg

Yeah,it's cool, only catch is, it takes about 2-300MB RAM...

To be honest I don't think oblivion is everything next-gen can offer, there'll come nicer and bigger games which eventually will requier more space.
I wonder how much UT2k7 uses...

Bigger space gives the developer lots of freedom right? They don't have to worry that much about space and can have lots of movies and uncompressed, good quality stuff.
Decompressing requires performance too right?

Edit: who says blu-ray is no use for now? I think that quite many people will buy the movies.
 
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dskneo said:
listen..... you want DVD-only games in you console 5 years from now?

No, I want good games 5 years from now, I don't care on what format they are on. If they can deliver a kick as experience that only uses 1 GB I don't care, I play games, not storage formats.

i dont know about you guys, but 6 years ago i was happy with GD-rom from dreamcast and in denial about DVD in ps2.
6 years later, thank god im not a f.anboy anymore.

Good for you.

The bigger the better.
i dont know the needs required 5 years from now, and neither do you.
But the sure thing to say, is that a drive with 50gb is the safest Bet whether you like it or not.

Sure it is safer, that is not in question, rather if DVD are enough or not for next gen content, or if the xbox360 will end up "suffering" because of it.

excuses are just that
No way im gonna pay 400 bucks for something to last 5 years that doesn't have a proper future-safe format. Procedural texture my ass! thats what!

So you don't seem to appreciate new rendering techniques and software advances as you do with new hardware, point taken.

[/quote]hell, just any format would do... bluray or not, space is space.
Never in my life i saw ppl defending a lesser format just "because"
your not gonna pay the new format in full! its a damn bargain good for you now, and 5 years from now too![/quote]

There is nothing to defend, it is a lesser format, no doubt, the question is if it is enough...
 
rounin said:
EDIT: some more

Heres a screenie from a certain site with the rips. Note that the sizes are of the game RARed. From experience, unRaring will usually add at least 1gig-2gigs to the size.

PGR3 is using 6.54gigs RARed.

That article is pretty biased.

numbers3xl.jpg


Doesn't mean the game takes up all that space. Oh, and they are not rips, they are dumps.
Why do we release full raw dumps, one sentence "Remember
Gamecube?" until we know for sure what will be needed to run
these things we will be releasing the full raw dumps to you,
also a full raw dump is more likely to assist any hackers out
there...
So the first task is done. We hope this encourages all hackers
 
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weaksauce said:
Decompressing requires performance too right?

Yep... and procedurally generating textures even more. A lot more, compared to simply fetching pre-saved textures...

Not to say it's a bad thing (procedurally generating textures) - but it's not something is going to make up for a 3 to 5 times storage disadvantage unless you want to have an overly simplified game because all performance was spent on generating textures...
 
This just reminded me of when Peter Moore said 720p was "good enough" which later led to the slogan:

XBOX360 - "it's good enough"

:smile:
 
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