Drunk driving

[Humus]

I saw this program about drunk driving on TV last night. Under controlled forms they let a guy drink more and more and they continuously let him test his driving skills at different BAC. Not surprisingly he drove worse and worse, and his skills were quickly reduced even after small doses. Nothing I didn't know already and not particularly surprising either. But what did surprise me was at what BAC you're considered intoxinated in different countries.

Sweden - 0.02%
UK, Ireland, Italy, Luxemburg - 0.08%
Rest of Europa - 0.05%
USA - 0.08% to 0.10%

Why are the levels so high everywhere? Would I have guessed I would have thought most countries would be around maybe 0.03%. You're clearly incapable of controlling a vehicle at 0.05%, and you're hardly driving safely even at 0.02%.

 

[Simon F]

FWIW it's 0.05% in Australia.

Doesn't that amount allow you to have about one "unit" of alcohol and still be under the limit?

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Why drink and drive when you can smoke and fly?

 

[Heathen]

Why are the levels so high everywhere?

Politics I'd guess, along with vested commercial interests.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Not everyone is effected equally by the same level of intoxication. As much as I hate drunk drivers, zero tolerance laws are horrible.

 

[Natoma]

Not everyone is effected equally by the same level of intoxication. As much as I hate drunk drivers, zero tolerance laws are horrible.

While I agree, it's probably even more difficult to try and extrapolate someone's tolerance level based on their individual genetics. For now this is the best system we've got.

 

[jvd]

My friend is a cop and we were all chilling down at curtis rite and he decieded to stop buy and hang out for a bit. We were all drinking and my ex was the driver so none of us had to worry about it . My bac was .18 and I was still driving fine . My friend couldn't drive well after .08 though.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

My bac was .18 and I was still driving fine .

Based on who's analysis / observation?

 

[Simon F]

My bac was .18 and I was still driving fine .

Based on who's analysis / observation?

err...

"My own and if you want to debate it with me you and your twin brother can both step outshhhide"

Actually it reminds me of a story a teacher of mine told me of his foolish youth. He said one time he was driving back from a pub and he thought "Jeez this road is bumpy. I'm going to stop." He woke up later to find he'd been driving through a field. That is scary.

As one of my school friends was killed by a drunk driver I don't condone drink driving in any way or fashion. I remember an ad' campaign in Australia which put it bluntly "If you drink and drive, you're a bloody idiot".

 

[nutball]

Why are the levels so high everywhere? Would I have guessed I would have thought most countries would be around maybe 0.03%. You're clearly incapable of controlling a vehicle at 0.05%, and you're hardly driving safely even at 0.02%.

I'd guess it's because a) it's a sliding scale, and b) alcohol affects different people in different ways.

The second point is a real grey area anyway, but in respect of the first the problem with these limits is that people can get into the mindset that below the limit you are "safe" and above the limit you are "dangerous". This isn't true, or course, it's just sloppy thinking, and a symptom of the public's inability to underestand risk, or even probability in a general sense.

The more alcohol you consume, the more dangerous you are when you drive. That's about the only thing which scientific studies will be able to tell you. Each country has to make a value judgement about how much risk they are willing to tolerate, and set the limit appropriately.

In the quote above you make statements like "clearly incapable", "hardly driving safely". These are value judgements. Other people will make different assessements.

 

[Humus]

Of course there's some variance, but like jvd thinking how drove "fine" at 0.18 is ridicolous. He might have felt he drove fine, but an outside observer most likely wouldn't think so. At that level nobody is remotely capable of handling a vehicle.

The research is clear. Virtually all drivers, even experienced drinkers, are significantly impaired at .08 BAC. As early as 1988, a NHTSA review of 177 studies clearly documented this impairment. NHTSA released a later review of 112 more recent studies, providing additional evidence of impairment at .08 BAC and below. The results of the nearly 300 studies reviewed have shown that, at .08 BAC, virtually all drivers are impaired on critical driving tasks such as divided attention, complex reaction time, steering, lane changing, and judgment.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/New-fact-sheet03/Point08BAC.pdf

Laboratory studies indicate that impairment in critical driving functions begins at low BACs. Most subjects in these studies were significantly impaired at .05 BAC with regard to visual acuity, vigilance, drowsiness, psychomotor skills, and information processing compared to their performance at .00 BAC.

Just seeing the guy on TV trying to do a handling exercise you could clearly see he wasn't driving well even at 0.02. Even at that level and below you're still several times over more dangerous than a normal driver.

The most disturbing thing though is that driving drunk is legally seen a light crime. The typical penalty is like 50 hours of society service, a small fine, or in more serious cases perhaps a month or two in prison. The maximum penalty you can get 2 years, and that's pretty much only when you have killed someone. IMO killing with a car is not less of a crime than killing with a gun. Like someone said, "if you're drunk and shoot somebody, you're still going to be prosecuted for murder, why not if you kill with a car?" A very good question indeed. If you walk around in public with a gun pointing at people just for fun, and then it suddenly fires accidentally and kills somebody you can't say you didn't intend to as an excuse, you were knowingly puting other people at a risk, and it's definitely murder. Same with drunk driving.

Another wicked thing is that when a drunk driver is caught, the police have no right to take the car keys from the driver, and in many cases that just means that the driver will get back to driving again after being questioned for an hour or so.

IMO, people caught driving drunk should have an alco-lock put into their car. If there's no attempt of trying to start the car in drunken condition was recorded in a couple of months, then they may remove it. Otherwise, follow up with rehabilitation.

 

[Simon F]

Another wicked thing is that when a drunk driver is caught, the police have no right to take the car keys from the driver, and in many cases that just means that the driver will get back to driving again after being questioned for an hour or so.

In which country?! Surely someone who is over the limit will be arrested. In the UK, you automatically lose your license for a year.

In Australia there is also RBT (Random Breath Testing) with, IIRC, fairly severe consequences for failing the subsequent blood test.

 

[RussSchultz]

DUI is not considered a light crime in Texas.

 

[Simon F]

Just to add to this, I've also seen reports on...

• Driving while tired and
• Driving the day after a drinking binge even when the BAC has returned to zero

Both showed significant decreases in the ability to drive a vehicle.

 

[Humus]

Another wicked thing is that when a drunk driver is caught, the police have no right to take the car keys from the driver, and in many cases that just means that the driver will get back to driving again after being questioned for an hour or so.

In which country?! Surely someone who is over the limit will be arrested. In the UK, you automatically lose your license for a year.

In Australia there is also RBT (Random Breath Testing) with, IIRC, fairly severe consequences for failing the subsequent blood test.

In Sweden. I thought the police would have the authority to do more, but it seems not. You'll probably lose your driver's license, at least in serious cases, but that usually doesn't stop people from driving anyway.

 

[Humus]

Just to add to this, I've also seen reports on...

• Driving while tired and
• Driving the day after a drinking binge even when the BAC has returned to zero

Both showed significant decreases in the ability to drive a vehicle.

That's true, but contrary to when you're drunk you still have your common sense pretty much intact in those cases and are aware of your condition and don't overrate your abilities. It's also very hard to measure how tired you are and other such conditions, so it's hard to make a law against it. Being hungry probably takes away some of your attention too. A careful driver should be aware of that though and avoid driving when you're tired. If a police stops a driver that yawns loudly, I'm sure they would advice him to drive to the nearest restplace and sleep an hour or two before proceeding.

 

[Simon F]

If a police stops a driver that yawns loudly, I'm sure they would advice him to drive to the nearest restplace and sleep an hour or two before proceeding.

Take this with a grain of salt because I can't remember the source, but I think I've heard recommendations that you can take a nap for ~30minutes but if you go over that then you really have to sleep for a substantial length of time.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Just to add to this, I've also seen reports on...

• Driving while tired and
• Driving the day after a drinking binge even when the BAC has returned to zero

Both showed significant decreases in the ability to drive a vehicle.

I think that might have something to do with the varying BAC legal limits. In other words...if tests show (just making this up) that "most people over 65" have reduced reaction times that are similar to say, most people at 0.03% BAC....does that mean it should be illegal for people over 65 to drive?

Should it be illegal to even listen to the radio? Talk on the phone? Both can be distracting and cause reductions in awareness, etc.

I think one fear of making BAC levels too low, is that it might open the door for other "not so welcomed" restrictions for drivers.

 

[RussSchultz]

Yeah! Nobody better take away my right to eat a salad while driving.

 

[nelg]

As someone who has skied both high and drunk I can say from personal experience that alcohol very easily diminishes your ability to react. Even when I had consumed only a little and was under the impression that it would have no effect the reality was that I could just not steer away from all those trees.