Do FPS fans want to go motion-based direct-aim?

[patsu]

But would it even make sense to let DS3 and Move users to play together given any advantages/disadvantages either way, at least for ranked matches? Keep things fair for everyone.

Socom is going to try it. That's why I keep repeating that Sony should share their findings.

Our MAG experiences so far says that team composition, map design may outweigh one-vs-one performance. The effect may not be worse off compared to heavy machine gunner vs assault rifle (e.g., PS Move users may gravitate towards certain weapons).

For many hardcore FPS gamers, I suspect "the more things change, the more they stay the same". They are going to hug their DS3 till death.

Hopefully DigitalFoundry will do a nice comparative piece on the differences in lag and other things between the DS3 and Move once the actual games are released.

Yeah, they have matured quite well. I was worrying for them secretly for "failing" like other gaming press. If they remember to call out the contexts for the measurements and discuss the numbers in the right context, I think we can learn quite a bit about the tech. Heck, we may even be able to derive the optimal strategy for a Move player.

 

[betan]

Patsu, 20ms SPU time for MLAA is a throughput value, says nothing about the latency.

 

[patsu]

Patsu, 20ms SPU time for MLAA is a throughput value, says nothing about the latency.

Are you positive ? T.B. mentioned that when they say "latency" (in the MLAA discussion), it includes everything that happened within that time slot:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1428977&postcount=417

EDIT: Someone on GAF mentioned that the light ball image processing is an order of magnitude faster than the camera input (according to Sony or Dr. Marks), but I can't find the original link. If true, I suspect that's exactly why they chose the light ball technique for Move (cost and efficiency). They pit it against more sophisticated tech, perhaps like the ultra-sonic sensors patent they filed.

 

[Cornsnake]

Socom is going to try it. That's why I keep repeating that Sony should share their findings.

Our MAG experiences so far says that team composition, map design may outweigh one-vs-one performance. The effect may not be worse off compared to heavy machine gunner vs assault rifle (e.g., PS Move users may gravitate towards certain weapons).

For many hardcore FPS gamers, I suspect "the more things change, the more they stay the same". They are going to hug their DS3 till death.

That's true, but we also see the MAG community arguing endlessly over the slightest imbalance problems. Even if there is only a negligible difference between the two, the players may not like it.

 

[patsu]

That's true, but we also see the MAG community arguing endlessly over the slightest imbalance problems. Even if there is only a negligible difference between the two, the players may not like it.

That may very well be true.

I feel that MAG's primary issues are the (lack of) training and the rough coordination/cooperation mechanisms. They are compounded further by map differences and the large team size. These have no easy solution.

The weapon balance is important but at least people can switch to the over-powered weapons (RFOM had some of these issues in its lifespan too).

 

[obonicus]

That's true, but we also see the MAG community arguing endlessly over the slightest imbalance problems. Even if there is only a negligible difference between the two, the players may not like it.

People can buy devices that allow you to play PS3 games with mouse and keyboard. You can use special thumbstick covers that increase precision. And it's likely that the difference isn't nearly as significant as it is for people who buy expensive arcade controllers for fighting games. In that case, the 'pro' crowd bought up, while other folk cope with their gamepads.

 

[Cornsnake]

People can buy devices that allow you to play PS3 games with mouse and keyboard. You can use special thumbstick covers that increase precision. And it's likely that the difference isn't nearly as significant as it is for people who buy expensive arcade controllers for fighting games. In that case, the 'pro' crowd bought up, while other folk cope with their gamepads.

But those are people extreme minority. Most people might not even know those things exist. So they have nothing to complain about. The Move, if it does well, is going to be in far more people's hands. Take a clear advantage of the Move like faster turning speeds, show that to them. And those not willing to pay extra for the Move controllers might not be too happy with their disadvantage.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

But those are people extreme minority. Most people might not even know those things exist. So they have nothing to complain about. The Move, if it does well, is going to be in far more people's hands. Take a clear advantage of the Move like faster turning speeds, show that to them. And those not willing to pay extra for the Move controllers might not be too happy with their disadvantage.

Eh, anyone that knows, say Street Fighter, will know there's fighting sticks available. Online shopping usually shows it as "suggested buy" or "other people also bought." Physical Stores usually have one on the shelf.

Now, whether they are up to spending ~100 USD for a good fighting stick is debatable. But awareness of such probably isn't.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

But those are people extreme minority. Most people might not even know those things exist. So they have nothing to complain about. The Move, if it does well, is going to be in far more people's hands. Take a clear advantage of the Move like faster turning speeds, show that to them. And those not willing to pay extra for the Move controllers might not be too happy with their disadvantage.

I agree in principle !

*If* the DS3 is more accurate while the Move is more suited for run-and-gun (really ? faster turning speed ? I'd love to try it), then I think we will see some real switchers. They may pick different in-game weapons to compensate too.

I still doubt people will use Move in FPSes en mass. They may switch slowly *if* there's a real advantage. The pad has its own advantages (better accuracy), and is very entrenched (feels more comfortable psychologically). The game may compensate for the difference (e.g., slow down Move folks if the turning advantage is too obvious). Some lower level people may not be able to tell the difference anyway. I suspect I belong to that camp.

 

[obonicus]

Eh, anyone that knows, say Street Fighter, will know there's fighting sticks available. Online shopping usually shows it as "suggested buy" or "other people also bought." Physical Stores usually have one on the shelf.

Now, whether they are up to spending ~100 USD for a good fighting stick is debatable. But awareness of such probably isn't.

Exactly. And the metagame has moved to the point where almost all, if not all of the 'serious' players own high-end fighting sticks.

 

[Cornsnake]

I was mostly referring to the use of a device allowing you to use a mouse and keyboard to give you and advantage in shooters. I don't know anyone who does that. Most people play console games on a couch, a mouse and keyboard just doesn't lend itself too well to that.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The pad has its own advantages (better accuracy)...

How can the pad be more accurate? Tryign to get subtle aiming on a sniper rifle is hard on a thumbstick, moreso in some games than others. Pointing at the screen is a doddle by comparison. I expect Move shooters to be very easy to aim removing the skill barrier that separates top players frmo the rest, and the differentiation between players will become knowledge of the maps, weapons, etc. It'll be good IMO (though folks like CheezeDoodles will complain!) if everyone has the same ability to get headshots.

 

[patsu]

I assume since the reticule movement will be smoothed to prevent shaky aim, the gamer may require more time to place a shot. For sniping, an FPS usually simulate breathing motion. It may fudge the aiming too. An analog stick solution does not require the user to stablize his hands too much.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But moving the reticule where you want it is hard with a thumbstick. I end up tracking too slow, so speed up only to overcompensate and iss the mark. Then I have to wander the barrel to the target. In Borderlands this is very evident with the aiming being quite touchy. My friends tend to play with lower aimng speed to get better accuracy, but then they can't turn as fast when in the thick of things. The moment I can point where I'm looking, I'll be much, much better at aiming!

 

[BadTB25]

I assume since the reticule movement will be smoothed to prevent shaky aim, the gamer may require more time to place a shot. For sniping, an FPS usually simulate breathing motion. It may fudge the aiming too. An analog stick solution does not require the user to stablize his hands too much.

I wonder if they can use some image stabilization software similar to what is used in cameras when you zoom in.

With the Wii, I noticed how shaky the pointer appears, and that's just in the Dashboard (or whatever it is called on the Wii).

 

[patsu]

But moving the reticule where you want it is hard with a thumbstick. I end up tracking too slow, so speed up only to overcompensate and iss the mark. Then I have to wander the barrel to the target. In Borderlands this is very evident with the aiming being quite touchy. My friends tend to play with lower aimng speed to get better accuracy, but then they can't turn as fast when in the thick of things. The moment I can point where I'm looking, I'll be much, much better at aiming!

Hard to say. Have to try the solution personally. I guess that's why Zipper said it's up to individual preferences.

In your Borderland example, did you adjust your sensitivity down ? If it's too touchy, it could mean the sensitivity is set too high.

I wonder if they can use some image stabilization software similar to what is used in cameras when you zoom in.

That's the smoothing algorithm we talk about. Socom 4 has it.

With the Wii, I noticed how shaky the pointer appears, and that's just in the Dashboard (or whatever it is called on the Wii).

Yes, the shaky pointer in the Dashboard is not a big problem. On a Wii, I think it's more confusing when the system refuses to track your pointer when you point outside the scope of the sensor bar (but still at the TV). I thought the controller ran out of battery.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In your Borderland example, did you adjust your sensitivity down?

No, because that slows down maximum turn rate.

 

[obonicus]

Move shooters to be very easy to aim removing the skill barrier that separates top players frmo the rest

That's false, though. Mice are much easier to aim with than thumbsticks, but on PC shooters skill is still a huge part of the game.

 

[NavNucST3]

I am abstaining from voting because I am of two-minds. The PTSD suffering part of me wants absolutely no parts in 1:1 aiming and shooting. The gamer in me, however, knows how well the Navy trained me to shoot and thinks that I would finally be good in online multi. The first currently FAR outweighs the second...regrettably.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's false, though. Mice are much easier to aim with than thumbsticks, but on PC shooters skill is still a huge part of the game.

There's still way more skill need to immediately direct a mouse a fraction of an inch than to point a 'laser-beam' at a desired point on a screen. I'm sure there'll be those who can head-shot on a dime, just as there are better shots with a real gun than ordinary folk, but the difference between the layman and the seasoned pro won't be as pronounced except for the elite.