Do FPS fans want to go motion-based direct-aim?

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by Shifty Geezer, Jun 23, 2010.

?

Is lightgun-style motion aiming a major motion selling point for you?

  1. Yes; I want thumbstick aim to die a quick death

    16 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. Maybe; I'm curious, but I'm unconvinced at the moment

    35 vote(s)
    48.6%
  3. No; thumbsticks are fine by me

    14 vote(s)
    19.4%
  4. No; I've already got some cheating peripheral giving me an unfair advantage (:p)

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  5. Don't know why I entered this poll, but I vote none of the above

    6 vote(s)
    8.3%
  1. nightshade

    nightshade Wookies love cookies!
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    Liverpool
    I LOVED playing Metroid Prime trilogy on Wii...I never played a Metroid Prime game until I played Trilogy & eventhough it was a bit disorienting at first I got used to it & it was awesome. But perhaps that's because the game itself is so amazing cause it WAS a tiring job to play the game with motion controller & every once in a while I wished I had a pad controller to play the game.


    This was after playing the game for 2-3 hours non-stop...something tells me its going to be even more tiring in Multiplayer since you have people moving,running,jumping everywhere with non-uniform pattern.
     
  2. corduroygt

    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,390
    Likes Received:
    0
    The same problem also exists with a mouse, what you do is to lift the mouse up when it gets to the edges of the mouse pad. With a motion controller, you'll just have a button to hold down when you want to recenter it.

    Here's an example of pc gaming with a much less precise, gyro-only mouse, looks decent except that the game is running at a bad framerate...
     
    #22 corduroygt, Jun 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2010
  3. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    18,070
    Likes Received:
    1,662
    Location:
    Maastricht, The Netherlands
    Right now I'm pretty confident in the potential of the Move providing a better experience for people who are used to mouse/kb than the analog controllers could ever do. I discussed it with a few PC only guys who were enthusiastic about the prospect of being able to play a shooter like this on a console.

    With the Move, I think we can see a rather big improvement over the WiiMote, because all that we've seen so far is also pre-Motion+. The resolution advantage of the Move versus the standard controller is really rather big, and should rival a mouse for console games fairly easily.

    For the keyboard part of the keyboard/mouse combo, it takes very little to be an improvement over that - an analog stick and a few buttons is already much better in any way I can think of.

    Instinctively I feel that two moves could be even better, but I don't know if that's true. I'm thinking I could hold a move controller in my left hand to control every single bit of non-standing still movement, but I'm not sure. It should probably be precise enough, but maybe it would take too much movement versus the thumbstick. I would love, say, Killzone 3 to be fully configurable though so that you could try out any combination of options for this.

    Certainly, as I've said many times before, I'd love a Descent style game with two Move controllers, or G-Police, or any space shooter.

    Ah, I can't wait to get my hands on the move. Hope it sells a tonne and gets great support.

    One of the biggest reasons why I want something like Move for shooters comes, by the way, from my experience with Time Crisis with the GunCon controller. Shooting with that felt so incredibly much better than any FPS I'd ever played up to that point (and that was basically all of them starting with the first of them, which for me is 16 player Midi Maze II even before Wolfenstein 3D came out ;) ) and I was done playing FPS's from that point on for quite a while! I still miss that feeling to this day, and if Move gives me that feeling back, but in a full fps environment rather than an on-rails shooter, it's going to be pure heaven, and I'm convinced in that case it'll be hugely successful. I really have a hard time at the moment to not see it work, and I can even see myself buy that strange lovegun peripheral that harnesses the Move.
     
  4. specwarGP2

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    26
    if move is more precise than thumbsticks i'm all for it
     
  5. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    18,070
    Likes Received:
    1,662
    Location:
    Maastricht, The Netherlands
    Precision for pointing is close to a pixel I think (I remember a figure of 1024x1024 dropped in the early days but no idea if that changed), while twisting is less than a degree per step of a full circle (so 360 steps, was recently mentioned in an interview)

    The DS3 controller has 256 steps or more (I think they actually went from 8 bit to 10 bit for PS3) from left to right, but you cannot be pixel precise using your thumb no matter what the analog precision. To get any kind of precise control with the ds3 you have to manage its speed variably, something you can also do with the move but may not actually need to, being precise enough for point and shoot.
     
  6. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    14,212
    Likes Received:
    5,651
    I think you'd find that in terms of straight-up pointer functionality, the differences between the wiimote and the move will be negligible. Even if the move offers precision in millimeters, you wouldn't have that much precision with your hand in a fast paced game. You can be extremely accurate with the wiimote in Medal of Honor: Heroes 2, and imagine Move would feel about the same. The only difference between the two might be how your environment affects the quality of the experience. Move will be immune to the IR interference that Wii is subject to. With the Wii, candles or sunlight reflected off shiny surfaces seem to cause interference that Move should not be affected by. A lot of people complain about the Wii cursor jumping around, which is a problem with this kind of interference. I never had any problems like that until I moved the Wii downstairs in front of a glass coffee table that was exposed to light from a window. Well, and for actual motion controls there might improvements in recognition of movement patterns. Pointer shouldn't be noticeably different.
     
  7. tha_con

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,928
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan, KS
    Pointer controls in a 3rd person shooter, absolutely, 1st person? Not entirely sure...maybe not? I'll have to try it first.


    They actually can be considerably different. The Wii stops pointing (and registering your pointing) once you leave the viewable area of the LED Sensor Bar. With move they can alter the bounding box considerably and allow you to aim at the very edge of the screen if they wanted to, which is pretty difficult on the Wii. Not only that, but the technology is more stable and predictable, which means it'll do what you want it to do when you want to do it a lot more than the Wii does.

    I love RE4 on Wii, but there is nothing more frustrating than lining up a headshot and occasionally having it jump in a random direction because of another light source. I had to remove picture frames from around my television set because the reflection of lights was making my Wii remote malfunction so much.
     
    #27 tha_con, Jun 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2010
  8. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    14,212
    Likes Received:
    5,651
    I think some "hardcore" players will be made about going through a learning curve with the control scheme, but overall I think it's a good setup for both wiimote and move. I want to see more of Socom.
     
  9. tha_con

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,928
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan, KS
    Oh, I definitely agree here. The first time I played RE4, I was extremely disappointed. I HATED it. In fact, I got rid of it the first time. A few months later I managed to run into a copy a little later for free, and I decided it was worth a second try. I took time to actually learn the mechanics, and MAN, something clicked and I loved it. It was simply a more "immersive" experience compared to analog sticks. It actually FELT good, as opposed to playing good. So yea, there is certainly a learning curve involved, but after you get over it, the experience is extremely rewarding (IMO).


    Can you elaborate on this? I'm not entirely sure I understand why it looked "trashy". I mean, I don't really understand how you can compare SOCOM playing on a Move controller, to Gears of War playing on a 360 controller...
     
  10. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    17,098
    Likes Received:
    6,457
    I have a free air mouse that is quite accurate. It's an absolute nightmare in games however as there is no method to instantly recalibrate location. Even if there was a button to automatically bring the "cursor" back to center, it'd still be a royal PITA.

    I think the current methods on Wii are probably the best way to do it. With center meaning don't move and distance from center being how fast to move in that direction.

    When using a pointer and pointing at a screen after all, the natural reaction will be to try to point at the target.

    If the position was absolute like a mouse, people will try to point at a target above them, the screen would move to that location and stay there. But now while the center crosshair is perhaps on target, their pointer is no longer pointing at the target. Natural reaction then is to point the pointer at the target. But that just moves the crosshairs down and now the target is back up at the top of the screen and pointer is pointed at the center again where it was originally.

    If you have distance from center being how fast you move, pointing and aiming becomes more natural and intuitive. You try to point at the target above you (same scenario as previously) screen moves up to it and it starts to move down. Now you have to point at the target which means as it nears center your motion will slow making aiming easier. Once at center not only has motion stopped allowing you to shoot at him, you've also automatically re-centered and re-calibrated the pointer.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  11. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,947
    Likes Received:
    2,690
    They had discussed this a bit on this past Friday's "Weekend Confirmed" podcast. One of the concerns raised with wand-type motion controls was lack of persistence of aim like you have with both kb/mouse and thumbstick control. That is, once you point at something the crosshair remains pointed at that target unless you actively move it. Motion controls would require active effort to maintain an aiming point. Not saying this is a big deal, but it's something that makes the experience decidedly different than mouse/keyboard and I could see it being fatiguing over a long play session. The only way to ease this would be to lower the sensitivity, which would take away from one of the advantages of the control scheme.
     
  12. scooby_dooby

    Legend

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    8,563
    Likes Received:
    145
    Location:
    E-town, Alberta
    I voted no, and would've voted "HELL NO" if it was an option.

    I just do not see this catching on with hardcore gamers at all.

    Maybe if Halo, or COD does it really well, then it could catch on. But short some sort of huge AAA title that absolutely revolutionizes the control scheme*, it will be nothing more than a gimmick that gets inserted into a few games, but does not leave any lasting impression on the genre, ala SixAxis.

    *Which will not happen, since these will be peripherals with a paltry install ratio. It would have to be first party, and the options are pretty limited there. Even if Killzone 3 does it, it's not a big enough franchise to matter, it would have to be one of the really heavy hitters.
     
  13. patsu

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Messages:
    27,709
    Likes Received:
    145
    If the Move scheme does not require frequent recalibration, or re-centering, then I will take a closer look.

    If it's more accurate than DS3, and at least as intuitive as dual-stick, then I will use it regularly. But I doubt it.

    If it allows me to combine melee moves with armed combat, then I will prefer it over DS3. If I can use the controller to communicate better with my teammates (without talking), then I'll prefer it over DS3 also.

    If it makes throwing grenade easier, I'd appreciate it more too.
     
  14. obonicus

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,939
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not really the question that's being asked. It's not 'will you buy Move?', but 'are you interested in pointer FPS controls?'
     
  15. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    18,070
    Likes Received:
    1,662
    Location:
    Maastricht, The Netherlands
    I don't think concerns about being able to hold on to a target are warranted. You can see the Socom player rest his hand on his lap while playing. If the controller is sensitive enough, which it is, you require really small movement. This is not tiring at all, and not much different from playing flower or motorstorm with tilt either.

    Once you do use a gun aiming style, which is pretty cool to do so I can see it happen, I generally play with a raised knee on which I rested my 'gun arm' so that I could comfortably look over my sights. This, again, in Time Crisis, which more people should have played. ;)

    Oh, and make no mistake: Killzone 3 will support Move, and you need a lot of bias to believe Killzone is too small! That's ridiculous.
     
  16. woundingchaney

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    Im primarily a pc gamer though I dont mind using a gamepad for fps titles. I dont think many consumers are going to want a motion based interface in this genre primarily because there is an incredibly large amount of consumers that are more than comfortable (and actually prefer) gamepads over motion controls or even kb/m.
     
  17. patsu

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Messages:
    27,709
    Likes Received:
    145
    I suspect when implemented correctly, a Move shooter may be more expressive than a DS3 one. The latter has a very optimized FPS experience today. The former is a less optimized but more versatile combat tool. e.g., shooting, melee, directing, signaling, etc.

    Many times when I play with Cornsnake and JPT in MAG, I can't $&#*%& find them. I needed them to be in somewhere but I didn't know how to identify a place with 3 trees, 5 bushes and a rock. Chatting doesn't always work, and my mic is off usually.

    Marking on the map works (by pressing a mark button on the DS3/Move). But if people have time to look at the map, having a pointer allows me to do more to communicate enemy position and intentions for players with or without mic.

    The other way is to use in-game gestures and equipment... like pointing Move upwards to fire a flare, or send smoke signal. If I see one with the right color, I'd head there to help out. [EDIT: I just realize (if you're mad enough) you can use Move to mimic "flashlight" morse code also.]

    So if you're willing to forgo some of the DS3 optimization, you may get a different and still very entertaining experience back. Move shooting alone is interesting. Move + teammates may be more interesting.

    EDIT: Just saw this... although RE5 is not an FPS.

    http://kotaku.com/5571555/resident-evil-5-with-move-controls-better-than-youd-think

     
  18. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    17,098
    Likes Received:
    6,457
    Heh, if people had at least 3 arms and hands, Move could be absolutely revolutionary.

    If you could move (one hand) and aim your viewpoint (second hand) and then use Move to aim your weapon (third hand) that would be an incredible experience.

    That would get somewhat close to some of the more complex Mech simulation games where you had a joystick for movement and view change. Joystick controlled feet movement, twist stick for side to side view change, coolie hat for up and down view change. And then mouse to aim cursor freely around the available view window.

    Perhaps someone needs to make an analog foot controller for foward, back, right and left (basketball size foot trackball?). :D Or maybe an analog navigation controller with an analog thumbstick and an analog index finger (trigger) stick? :D

    Talk about scaring away people that are afraid of complex controls. :D

    Regards,
    SB
     
  19. obonicus

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,939
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think we should highlight that this isn't something new Sony is bringing to the table -- pointer-based FPS controls exist, people have used them for years. Some people love them, even. These people might have terrible taste (and in fact quite a few do) but this isn't some abstract thing that we will only know about when Move comes out.
     
  20. patsu

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Messages:
    27,709
    Likes Received:
    145
    There are advantages to keep things simpler.

    I tried the Time Crisis gun (with analog stick on the gun to control movement). It's too confusing to use. I enjoyed it much better when it's on rail + a simple gun.

    Wii has done free-movement FPSes with dual controllers. The limitations I think may be the game's scope (shooter + what other mechanics ?), and existing entrenched gamer behaviour. It will take time to change. I believe the view and reticule controls are managed by one motion controller.

    Metal Gears Arcade has a gun and a camera/3D glasses (for view camera). Should be good enough to do your 3-hand game, plus depth perception.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...