DirectX Developer Day 2020

[JoeJ]

Let's be clear DX12U means >= RDNA2 for amd, that's a lot of users even 2 years from now that won't be supported. Factor in laptops also.

It also means >= Turing.
While i'm surprised RDNA2 has feature parity with Turing, i still hope for traversal shaders as well. But Ultimate does not have it.
This either means RDNA2 can't do it at all (or it's too slow), or MS decided to set Turing as the base.
On the other hand, if RDNA2 and Ampere have support, i'm not sure Ultimate should be chosen as the base for 'next gen' games, because there are not so many Turing users.

Setting a base for everyone just does not work. Actually, extension hell but continuously adding new features makes more sense to me. Hardware is not affected by such classifications anyways.
I'd prefer to call Ultimate DX13, and after adding stuff like traversal shaders DX14, etc.
With introduction of a term like 'Ultimate', they soon have the same issue they already have for consoles: They run out of good names. Probably, when i get my traversal shaders, they'll call it 'Ultimate XXX' :|

 

[Pinstripe]

You guys have some serious concerns. Here we are still playing cutting-edge games today that won't go any further than DX FL11_1 but are already dreaming up DX13 and DX14 features.

 

[Dictator]

It also means >= Turing.
While i'm surprised RDNA2 has feature parity with Turing, i still hope for traversal shaders as well. But Ultimate does not have it.
This either means RDNA2 can't do it at all (or it's too slow), or MS decided to set Turing as the base.
On the other hand, if RDNA2 and Ampere have support, i'm not sure Ultimate should be chosen as the base for 'next gen' games, because there are not so many Turing users.

Setting a base for everyone just does not work. Actually, extension hell but continuously adding new features makes more sense to me. Hardware is not affected by such classifications anyways.
I'd prefer to call Ultimate DX13, and after adding stuff like traversal shaders DX14, etc.
With introduction of a term like 'Ultimate', they soon have the same issue they already have for consoles: They run out of good names. Probably, when i get my traversal shaders, they'll call it 'Ultimate XXX' :|

I think there are more Turing users than you may think!

 

[JoeJ]

I think there are more Turing users than you may think!

I think you don't know how many Turing users i think there are

It depends on next gen console + next NV+AMD GPUs feature set. If new features make enough of a difference, it can make sense for some devs to use that as baseline instead Turing, especially if it's about games that will take multiple years until release.
I did not intend to make any point against Turing - it's just used as example to illustrate 'Ultimate' won't be ultimate anymore in some years, obviously.
Also i do not mean there would be no support for older GPUs, but treating those as compromised part of development could be necessary.

 

[trinibwoy]

It depends on next gen console + next NV+AMD GPUs feature set. If new features make enough of a difference, it can make sense for some devs to use that as baseline instead Turing, especially if it's about games that will take multiple years until release.
I did not intend to make any point against Turing - it's just used as example to illustrate 'Ultimate' won't be ultimate anymore in some years, obviously.
Also i do not mean there would be no support for older GPUs, but treating those as compromised part of development could be necessary.

It's pretty clear DX Ultimate is Microsoft's feature target for this upcoming console generation. Turing will be fine feature wise for many years.

I like your optimism but when have devs ever used brand new features as a baseline for anything? It would be amazing to see full fledged DX ultimate games next year.

 

[JoeJ]

It's pretty clear DX Ultimate is Microsoft's feature target for this upcoming console generation.

Pretty sure there are still the usual low level extras, giving more control and close to the metal on console. (Traversal shaders could be part of that, with no option to use it on PC at all.)

but when have devs ever used brand new features as a baseline for anything?

All the time? It just takes years until engines and games, fully designed for a new feature set are done.

 

[trinibwoy]

Pretty sure there are still the usual low level extras, giving more control and close to the metal on console. (Traversal shaders could be part of that, with no option to use it on PC at all.)

Highly doubt that. It would dilute the impact of DX ultimate branding.

All the time? It just takes years until engines and games, fully designed for a new feature set are done.

And by the time that happens the features are no longer brand new. So no, not all the time. In fact almost never.

 

[BRiT]

It's pretty clear DX Ultimate is Microsoft's feature target for this upcoming console generation. Turing will be fine feature wise for many years.

I like your optimism but when have devs ever used brand new features as a baseline for anything? It would be amazing to see full fledged DX ultimate games next year.

Happens all the time for consoles if they had time to update their engines and if their games also target PC base.

 

[trinibwoy]

Happens all the time for consoles if they had time to update their engines and if their games also target PC base.

I was responding to the assertion that devs will target a baseline beyond DX ultimate in the near future.

 

[BRiT]

I was responding to the assertion that devs will target a baseline beyond DX ultimate in the near future.

Like if that would happen before the next set of consoles, so something between 2020 and 2026/2027?

As cool as that would be, I'm hard pressed to imagine what new features would be pushed to be added considering how long it took from DX12 to get DX12Ultimate.

 

[trinibwoy]

Like if that would happen before the next set of consoles, so something between 2020 and 2026/2027?

As cool as that would be, I'm hard pressed to imagine what new features would be pushed to be added considering how long it took from DX12 to get DX12Ultimate.

Yeah and given Microsoft’s current mantra that DX ultimate represents a common “future proof” feature set across Xbox and PC I don’t see how they could introduce or promote new baseline features before the next console generation.

When gamers purchase PC graphics hardware with the DX12 Ultimate logo or an Xbox Series X, they can do so with the confidence that their hardware is guaranteed to support ALL next generation graphics hardware features, including DirectX Raytracing, Variable Rate Shading, Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback. This mark of quality ensures stellar “future-proof” feature support for next generation games!

 

[JoeJ]

Yeah and given Microsoft’s current mantra that DX ultimate represents a common “future proof” feature set across Xbox and PC I don’t see how they could introduce or promote new baseline features before the next console generation.

Ok, i agree with that and did not notice your response was about my point 'some devs may set their baseline even beyond Ultimate'.

In fact i'm afraid MS decided their baseline not on next gen consoles, but on Turing, to get a better start for the hard cut they try to set with 'Ultimate'.
Then, i would disagree with MS. But only if RDNA2 and / or Ampere could do traversal shaders efficiently. (Pretty sure NV would offer extensions but not so sure about AMD.)
To me, traversal shaders yes or no makes a huge difference on what's the limit for RT - full scene or just around the camera. So it also decides if SM cascades are still unavoidable or not. That's a larger difference than VRS or sampler feedback would make.

Highly doubt that. It would dilute the impact of DX ultimate branding.

Why? The branding is there to sell next gen HW, to people who have no clue if consoles have extra options beyond that. It's only a matter for devs. They can still decide to avoid extra features to keep it simple, if highest preformance is not necessary.

And by the time that happens the features are no longer brand new. So no, not all the time. In fact almost never.

It's not fair to expect new HW features will show up instantly in all games.
The only reason HW features do not get adopted is if they are exclusive to a single vendor, which is not the case for Ultimate.

 

[iroboto]

Yeah and given Microsoft’s current mantra that DX ultimate represents a common “future proof” feature set across Xbox and PC I don’t see how they could introduce or promote new baseline features before the next console generation.

The hardware for these features would have been available as early as Turing was made available so late 2018ish.
These developers all would have known that these features are coming, at least the bigger more trusted studios.
Considering how long it takes to make a game, they could have started a long time ago and still not finish until 2021/2022.

DX12U is such a large upgrade, I think it would take nearly 7 years for all the features to be integrated into modern engines (and the entire tool/content creation chain will need to evolve with that as well) as there is only so much they can change while trying to ship a product.

 

[trinibwoy]

Why? The branding is there to sell next gen HW, to people who have no clue if consoles have extra options beyond that. It's only a matter for devs. They can still decide to avoid extra features to keep it simple, if highest preformance is not necessary.

The point is there can’t be extra features on Xbox because Microsoft literally guaranteed hardware feature parity with DX 12 ultimate. So how can devs use a feature on Xbox that isn’t supported by DX 12U?

It’s more than just branding though. For developers it’s helpful to have a well defined addressable market for a given feature set. Ultimate is basically just a fancy name for a feature level but the branding does add value to both devs and customers.

It's not fair to expect new HW features will show up instantly in all games.
The only reason HW features do not get adopted is if they are exclusive to a single vendor, which is not the case for Ultimate.

Yes of course. That’s why I said it would be great if we got full fledged DX12U games next year.

 

[JoeJ]

The point is there can’t be extra features on Xbox because Microsoft literally guaranteed hardware feature parity with DX 12 ultimate.

Do you have a source on how they phrased this exactly? Do they mean it both ways for sure?
I never worked on consoles, but e.g. on current gen they have the option to limit GPU occupancy on purpose to avoid cache thrashing. On PC that's only possible by doing nonsense like reserving more LDS than needed, or wasting registers.
Why would they remove such a simple feature? Maybe BC would be an argument, but easing up cross platform development is not, IMO.

 

[manux]

Do you have a source on how they phrased this exactly? Do they mean it both ways for sure?
I never worked on consoles, but e.g. on current gen they have the option to limit GPU occupancy on purpose to avoid cache thrashing. On PC that's only possible by doing nonsense like reserving more LDS than needed, or wasting registers.
Why would they remove such a simple feature? Maybe BC would be an argument, but easing up cross platform development is not, IMO.

Gamepass and windows pc support forces alignment on api level? Cost of porting and eventually BC is enough to direct towards one API to rule them all? Under api/on the side platform specific optimizations still could happen?

 

[Jay]

DX12U is a baseline of features. It doesn't mean that either console or pc can't have more.
Many reasons to leave it out of the baseline.

The baseline has probably been made to cover most gpu architectures that will be releasing in the near future, including the likes of Intel.

 

[pjbliverpool]

It's also likely (near certain) that future PC architectures will feature capabilities that the XSX will lack and that they will be used in games, even if only in sponsored games for a single IHV.

 

[trinibwoy]

Do you have a source on how they phrased this exactly? Do they mean it both ways for sure?

I posted the relevant quote a few posts up from this link. Second paragraph.

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/announcing-directx-12-ultimate/

PC hardware features will of course move past Xbox and DX 12 Ultimate. No surprise there. I am taking Microsoft's guarantee literally that the upcoming Xbox and DX Ultimate will be feature equivalent for the entire generation. I don't see how else you could interpret it.

 

[trinibwoy]

DX12U is a baseline of features. It doesn't mean that either console or pc can't have more.

Microsoft said the Xbox can't have more. Unless you have a different definition of "ALL next generation hardware features".