Digital Trends: Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD DVD Wins

Well aleast there's finally some titles out (and coming out) that dont use the ancient mpeg2 video codec, and SuperMan Returns wis the first 50GB disc that uses AVC aswell :cool:
Quality should atleast be way up right?
 
Don't know where he got this "HP HD DVD for 100£" cause it's said to cost as much as GBP399 and 599 Euros..
Those look like external add-ons, but this prompted me to look into this. A quick Google search turned up a CNet review of an HP system with HD-DVD but no PR on a $100 upgrade. So I went to HP's site, and all I see is a $250 secondary drive (not an upgrade of the primary optical, but it makes sense as I don't think HD drives can write yet) that also requires a (quite reasonably-priced) $100 7600GT upgrade.

$250 isn't bad, but it ain't $100.
 
First 50GB disc and VC-1 but it seems to be a movie with uninspiring source video quality (per this review and the 2nd and 6th December Amazon customer comments [it's not anamorphic?! surely that can't be right]). Pity. Has there been a BluRay disc yet that visually surpassed its HD-DVD version?
 
It would be so wrong if HD-DVD wins.
As pointed out elsewhere, HD-DVD is the the smaller leap that saves device manufacturers a couple of cents per unit. Stamper operators save one-time expenses for refitting the lines. Disc manufacturing cost is another couple of cents per unit less because there's no hardcoating. In return for cheering that bag of skimping up and wishing the HD-DVD camp a victory, you'll get the exact same codecs, equivalent interactivity and less storage capacity, i.e. less return for the investment required to rebuild your movie library

I really don't care what costs studios, distributors, replicators, etc, less. All I care about is excellent quality with the best value, and HD DVD delivers it while Blu-Ray does not.

That's the cold, hard technical truth. There's no technical reason why an HD-DVD player should perform better in any area or be cheaper than a BR player. It's digital storage with equal codecs => potentially equal software and equal circuitry => potentially equal devices with different physical storage media. Coincidencental, anecdotal differences in device quality and price will go away and[/strike].

Not true, there are several reasons an HD DVD player will perform better than a Blu-Ray player and be cheaper. First of all, HD DVD uses HDi for interactivity while Blu-Ray uses BD-Java; the former has worked great from the very first HD DVD release while the latter has been undeveloped. Second, HD DVD players have more mandatory features; 1st, each HD DVD player must have an ethernet jack & 128mb of persistent storage - allowing users to download new content off the internet and store it on their player while also allowing for easy firmware updates; 2nd, each HD DVD player must have DD+ & Dolby TrueHD decoding - this ensures that every user has access to the latest and greatest nextgen audio codec; 3rd, each HD DVD player must have 2 USB ports - which allows for greater expandibility & interactivity in the future. Blu-Ray offers none of this. The only thing Blu-Ray offers mandatory is 1080p60 support - which is mostly wasted since 99% of HDTVs released these days do deinterlacing with inverse telecine on 1080i, resulting in identical picture quality to a 1080p60 signal. However, offering this option has proven to make standalones prohibitively expensive; you can still get it in the HD DVD camp (X360, HD-XA2), but HD DVD gives you the option to spend about $500 less and get 1080i instead (which will be deinterlaced to 1080p without issue by your TV anyway).

Re the article, that guy should show some sales numbers before calling wins. AFAIK Microsoft hasn't been very good at disclosing absolute sales figures, and there's just nothing there right now to make the article appear valid. Or is there?

All your sales info is at your fingertips right now:
http://www.thedvdwars.com

all that remains will be the smaller capacity of HD-DVD

Which has not proven a barrier as HD DVDs consistently score the same or better than Blu-Ray equivalents across the board - heck HD DVD has a far better a/v quality track record than Blu-Ray! Bottom line, with VC-1, AVC H.264, and Dolby TrueHD, you definitely don't need more than 30GB of space to get reference quality on even the longest movies!

[strike]and the hybrid discs with even less capacity

Glad you crossed that out, as HD30/DVD9 hybrids which offer the same capacity as a dual layer HD30 HD DVD disc have been out for months and used on several releases.

The wrong format might win.

I don't think Blu-Ray will win despite all of its hype and advertising dollars. I would say Blu-Ray is the wrong format as its software has been less consistent than HD DVD's in the a/v department while offering less features and having standalone players that cost twice as much! On top of all that, it restricts consumers rights more with unnecessary BD+ DRM lumped on top of AACS! As you can probably tell, I'm all for HD DVD :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I really don't care what costs studios, distributors, replicators, etc, less. All I care about is excellent quality with the best value, and HD DVD delivers it while Blu-Ray does not.

Then you should thank BR (and not just Sony) because, AFAIR, the Toshiba HD-DVD players are heavily subsidized and therefore cheaper than what they would be.

See? Isn't competition good? ;)
 
Then you should thank BR (and not just Sony) because, AFAIR, the Toshiba HD-DVD players are heavily subsidized and therefore cheaper than what they would be.

See? Isn't competition good? ;)

Aside for isuppli there has not been any official Toshiba confirmation but let's assume they are. They could very well be but fact remains, Toshiba thought it would be good for the format to appeal to the people on the fence with a MSRP that is half of the competition. Clearly, this was a good move on their part.

Even if Toshiba subsizied their product, it's only for 50,000 units which is a fraction of the marketing/PR budget for such a firm. Couple this with great software execution and HD DVD really made a name for itself. I remember reading the CES 06 reports and how majority were knocking HD DVD left and right and even going as far as saying "why even launch and embarras yourself?" I, for one am glad they launched and have been doing an excellent job so far.

Now you have a 2nd gen player coming out (next week I believe) that is also $499 and I really don't believe that is subsidized. Funny enough the current $500 HD DVD player has more functionality than BR's 1000+ standalone players.....
 
Has there been a BluRay disc yet that visually surpassed its HD-DVD version?

No and you'll be very hard pressed to find that. A simple reason being that the neutral studios using VC-1 like to use the same encode across both platform (cost effective). Also, VC-1 is optimized for HD DVD's ceiling and the extra headroom does not necessarily mean better picture. If you were talking mpeg2, then yes, the extra head room would benefit. AVC HP, somewhere in the middle.

On a side note: people can't seem to get past the hardware specs. I suppose it's the "bigger dick" mind frame but really it's about the motion in the ocean or software advances in this case :)

Personally, I have a PS3 on the way so I can go format neutral but I'd still defend HD DVD. It gets a bad rap from people who are simply too obsessed with hardware specs and/or drinking too much marketing kool aid!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Then you should thank BR (and not just Sony) because, AFAIR, the Toshiba HD-DVD players are heavily subsidized and therefore cheaper than what they would be.

See? Isn't competition good? ;)

Both Sony and Toshiba are subsidising BR and HD-DVD respectively because they are the "owners" of the formats. The costs of BD and HD-DVD players are about the same to manufacture, because they use the same components.

The difference between BD and HD-DVD is that BD looks more expensive because BD is supported by a large number of consumer electronic giants whereas HD-DVD's only really big CE supporter is Toshiba. Sony prices the PS3 low but isn't pushing it's BD players very hard because the focus is on the PS3. Hence Sony manufactures it's BD players in small numbers and prices them high. Other manufacturers price their BD players even higher - why shouldn't they - production is constrained by blue diode production, and so supply is limited, which they can charge a high price for their products . The demand of BD components due to the relatively huge numbers of PS3 being manufactured is likely to be creating a shortage of BD drives, which also pushes up prices. HD-DVD drives are produced in much smaller numbers, and so HD-DVD drives are cheap and most players sold are Toshiba and are cheap. This makes it appear like BD is double the price of HD-DVD because PS3s which make up the vast majority of HDef drives sold aren't being counted as BD players. In reality BD prices will drop when supply problems are overcome, and may actually end up cheaper than HD-DVD because there are more manufacturers competing than for HD-DVD.

Basically, when you have severe supply constraint on the market from blue laser diodes and from PS3 production, and heavy subsidies by both Sony and Toshiba, the price will be severely distorted, and it would not be sensible to expect the prices to remain when the supply constraints and subsidies are removed - as they will eventually.
 
I really don't care what costs studios, distributors, replicators, etc, less. All I care about is excellent quality with the best value, and HD DVD delivers it while Blu-Ray does not.
How come? Is it The Lens?
Ruined said:
Not true, there are several reasons an HD DVD player will perform better than a Blu-Ray player and be cheaper. First of all, HD DVD uses HDi for interactivity while Blu-Ray uses BD-Java; the former has worked great from the very first HD DVD release while the latter has been undeveloped. Second, HD DVD players have more mandatory features; 1st, each HD DVD player must have an ethernet jack & 128mb of persistent storage - allowing users to download new content off the internet and store it on their player while also allowing for easy firmware updates; 2nd, each HD DVD player must have DD+ & Dolby TrueHD decoding - this ensures that every user has access to the latest and greatest nextgen audio codec; 3rd, each HD DVD player must have 2 USB ports - which allows for greater expandibility & interactivity in the future. Blu-Ray offers none of this.
Oh my god just buy a proper player. But now I understand your concerns. If you're afraid that the baseline BR spec will not satisfy your audio needs, you must be a very small mammal with a lifespan of about two years tops. That explains why you are in such haste.

Really, mandatory shmandatory. There's enough space on the discs for multiple audio tracks, and if you want the ability to use a specific super-duper format you got to have a player that supports it. DVDs do it all the time. Guess what, it allows baseline players to be cheaper.
Ruined said:
The only thing Blu-Ray offers mandatory is 1080p60 support - which is mostly wasted since 99% of HDTVs released these days do deinterlacing with inverse telecine on 1080i, resulting in identical picture quality to a 1080p60 signal. However, offering this option has proven to make standalones prohibitively expensive; you can still get it in the HD DVD camp (X360, HD-XA2), but HD DVD gives you the option to spend about $500 less and get 1080i instead (which will be deinterlaced to 1080p without issue by your TV anyway).
You must be making this up. Yeah, we all know what the players cost. The whole point was that there's no reason for a cost difference between player devices because they are alike except for the lens. Do you disagree with that?
Pardon I lose a little faith in you when you try to convince me that it costs 500$s to output a signal in a slightly different fashion. In actual reality it's simpler to ouput a progressive frame, but hey, we're talking about a few lines of code in the software here so we really just shouldn't go on with that.
Ruined said:
All your sales info is at your fingertips right now:
http://www.thedvdwars.com
Player devices please. Not there?
BR has ramped slower and we all know that. The question of the hour is: can the PS3 tilt the installed base in BR's favor? Or in other words: how many HD-DVD players have been sold?
Ruined said:
Which has not proven a barrier as HD DVDs consistently score the same or better than Blu-Ray equivalents across the board - heck HD DVD has a far better a/v quality track record than Blu-Ray! Bottom line, with VC-1, AVC H.264, and Dolby TrueHD, you definitely don't need more than 30GB of space to get reference quality on even the longest movies!

Glad you crossed that out, as HD30/DVD9 hybrids which offer the same capacity as a dual layer HD30 HD DVD disc have been out for months and used on several releases.

I don't think Blu-Ray will win despite all of its hype and advertising dollars. I would say Blu-Ray is the wrong format as its software has been less consistent than HD DVD's in the a/v department while offering less features and having standalone players that cost twice as much! On top of all that, it restricts consumers rights more with unnecessary BD+ DRM lumped on top of AACS! As you can probably tell, I'm all for HD DVD :)
Oh you bet, I can tell.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Blu-Ray rocks

I am tired of my DVDs with low quality coating and pay a premium price for such low quality (trash) material.

HD-DVD has for now the price as advantage, but it will change with time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
How come? Is it The Lens?
Oh my god just buy a proper player. But now I understand your concerns. If you're afraid that the baseline BR spec will not satisfy your audio needs, you must be a very small mammal with a lifespan of about two years tops. That explains why you are in such haste.

Its not just audio needs, though that is part of it - you need to spend $1299 on a Blu-Ray standalone to get the same audio experience that a $499 HD DVD standalone offers. But on top of that, even the best and most expensive Blu-Ray standalone has inferior interactivity (i.e. menus, extras, etc) than the cheapest HD DVD player because of HDi's far more robust state than BD-Java's current half-baked state. While this is only a software thing, I don't see it being rectified anytime soon. By the time BD-Java catches up to HDi's current state, HDi will be enabling internet features on HD DVDs and likely even games playable with USB game controllers even on a standalone - things that Blu-Ray can't offer because the hardware to do it is not mandatory in the player. All-in-all, HD DVD players seem to deliver a lot more for half the price. If you have used both Blu-Ray and HD DVD, you will see that Blu-Ray comes off as the same thing as DVD with better video quality, while HD DVD just feels like a whole new format due to the evolutions in interactivity/extras/etc.

Really, mandatory shmandatory. There's enough space on the discs for multiple audio tracks, and if you want the ability to use a specific super-duper format you got to have a player that supports it. DVDs do it all the time. Guess what, it allows baseline players to be cheaper.

Because of the lack of mandatory audio decoding, studios like Warner Bros have been delivering lossy Dolby Digital to Blu-Ray while HD DVD gets Dolby Digital TrueHD. Its not a multiple audio track thing, its a simple QA thing - they want their customers to be able to access everything on the disc with any player.

You must be making this up. Yeah, we all know what the players cost. The whole point was that there's no reason for a cost difference between player devices because they are alike except for the lens. Do you disagree with that?

No, there is a big difference. Blu-Ray players are required to output 1080p60, HD DVD players only are required to output 720p/1080i, with optional 1080p60 - not to mention the above differences.

Pardon I lose a little faith in you when you try to convince me that it costs 500$s to output a signal in a slightly different fashion. In actual reality it's simpler to ouput a progressive frame, but hey, we're talking about a few lines of code in the software here so we really just shouldn't go on with that.

Not as simple as you state, otherwise Toshiba obviously would put 1080p on all their players. In reality, its not just a few lines of code - if you simply output the progressive frame to the HDTV, you will get a scrambled unwatchable picture because the progressive frame is 1080p24 (24fps) and most HDTVs only support 1080p60 (60fps). You basically have to take the 1080p24 signal and use a 3:2 cadence to upconvert it to 1080p60 - this can be done by using a video processor or by decoding the signal to 1080i60 and then converting 1080i60 to 1080p60. Either, way its certainly not cheap as evidenced by player prices with 1080p60. While Blu-Ray prices will drop, HD DVD will get to the magic $199-$249 point a heck of a lot quicker than Blu-Ray.

Player devices please. Not there?
Look at the tabs on the top of the page... Although the players haven't been updated in a while and lack the latest HD DVD/Blu-Ray players. Still, you can manually check Amazon and see that HD DVD is murdering Blu-Ray in player sales as well despite the 1st gen HD DVD players being out of production for a month and the 2nd gen HD DVD players not being available in bulk until next week.

BR has ramped slower and we all know that. The question of the hour is: can the PS3 tilt the installed base in BR's favor? Or in other words: how many HD-DVD players have been sold?

So far PS3 hasn't tipped the scale. It may have somewhat improved things for Blu-Ray, but it still remains far behind HD DVD - and the fact that it didn't tip the scale has caused many industry experts to give the edge to HD DVD. There are two problems with PS3 tilting anything - first, most will likely by the PS3 for games and nothing else. And second, the XBOX 360's HD DVD addon allows 360 owners to get into high definition video at a much cheaper price than buying a PS3 - and even if you don't have either, 360 + HD DVD is the same price as PS3. By next XMAS, HD DVD standalone prices will likely be around $299 street, making the PS3 even less attractive as a movie player.

HD DVD/DVD combo discs (which are now HD30/DVD9 as I listed above) will eventually be able to be used as a trump card as well. Once manufacturing capacity gets up there, studios will be able to release ONLY a MSRP $24.99 HD DVD/DVD combo disc for a major release with no DVD version available. Meaning that if you go to Walmart to buy some movie on DVD, you will have no choice but to buy the HD DVD/DVD combo; likewise, the studio could sell only the HD DVD/DVD combo to Blockbuster, too. This single stocking will put HD DVD into the hands of everyone and will give everyone a very real reason to upgrade to HD DVD - because they already have a lot of HD DVD discs! When HD DVD gets to that point, sales of HD DVD will equal sales of DVD. Which will be a lot. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think it's very premature to crown HD-DVD. What I think is clear has happened however, is that BRD had the *only* chance to get the quick kill (as defined as pretty much causing the opponents to run up the white flag by Spring 2007) and that has now gone by the boards. 6 months ago we were assuming millions of BRD players by year end and no HD-DVD on XB360 (however many there are). How different that looks now. We're in for the long war now. Start praying for the dual-format players.

Sony isn't just a hardware manufacturer. They control a huge movie library. And their media/format stubbornness is legendary. And so long as Disney is on their side, particularly exclusively. . . . well, that might not be enough to score the knockout, but it sure as hell is enough to not lose. I said aways back that Disney switching sides would be the killer for BRD (tho rumor has it they might go agnostic and offer both). I still think so.

One of the interesting wrinkles I haven't heard much about, is that by releasing PS3 at the pricepoint they have they are pretty much putting a ceiling on what competitors can charge for new BRD players, which might put a monkey in the process of getting more non-Sony BRD players out there, with all that could imply as to vested interests of more industry participants, etc.
 
I think it's very premature to crown HD-DVD. What I think is clear has happened however, is that BRD had the *only* chance to get the quick kill (as defined as pretty much causing the opponents to run up the white flag by Spring 2007) and that has now gone by the boards. 6 months ago we were assuming millions of BRD players by year end and no HD-DVD on XB360 (however many there are). How different that looks now. We're in for the long war now. Start praying for the dual-format players.

Sony isn't just a hardware manufacturer. They control a huge movie library. And their media/format stubbornness is legendary.

Sony's media/format stuborness is what landed them in the bad spot they are in today, and also a big part of why Ken got the boot. Blu-Ray is quickly becoming a lost cause... Not that it is definitely doomed, but it is certainly on that track. With HD DVD going the opposite direction, it would be foolish for studios like Disney (who codeveloped HD DVD's HDi interactivity standard) and LionsGate (who have too few movies to not go neutral) to not support HD DVD. I think their will be some definite motion put into place at CES and before xmas 2007 we will certainly see LG and Disney on HD DVD. That will only add to HD DVD's momentum of course, which will eventually cause more diehard Blu-Ray studios (Sony, Fox) to release to HD DVD in due time. Though Sony wants their own format, hopefully they realize that being able to sell their catalog titles yet again will be much more profitable than anything a flagging Sony format can offer. I could see Blu-Ray remaining as a PS3-movie format, but I think the overall next-gen movie format that will sell big is HD DVD.

And so long as Disney is on their side, particularly exclusively. . . . well, that might not be enough to score the knockout, but it sure as hell is enough to not lose. I said aways back that Disney switching sides would be the killer for BRD (tho rumor has it they might go agnostic and offer both). I still think so

Yeah, it definitely looks like Disney will go neutral. They codeveloped HDi on HD DVD and they are beginning to switch to h264 encodes instead of MPEG2, which will fit nicely on HD DVD. Combine that with HD DVD's better sales and I think by the end of 2007 we will see Disney on HD DVD. LionsGate as well. Fox & Sony will likely be holdouts.

One of the interesting wrinkles I haven't heard much about, is that by releasing PS3 at the pricepoint they have they are pretty much putting a ceiling on what competitors can charge for new BRD players, which might put a monkey in the process of getting more non-Sony BRD players out there, with all that could imply as to vested interests of more industry participants, etc.

That is a problem, although you could argue that Toshiba's aggressive pricing of the HD-A2 and HD-XA2 may make it difficult to sell HD DVD players too. However, in Blu-Ray's case I think it is even worse because the PS3 essentially devalues BD players currently on the market. PS3 is about on par featurewise with the $1299 Panasonic DMP-BD10, which says a lot for how much that unit is now worth in the BD market. OTOH, I am of the opinion that you can never beat a standalone :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What, if any, DVD / HD DVD combo disks are available now?

Superman Returns
16 Blocks
Firewall
The Grinch That Stole Christmas
Unleashed
The Break Up
Rumor Has it
Fast Times at Ridgemont High
Dazed and Confused
Miami Vice
Fast and the Furious Tokyo Drift
An American Wearwolf in London
Land of the Dead
Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang
The Lake House
Accepted
You, Me, & Dupree
The Ant Bully
Waist Deep
ATL
Army of Darkness
Good Night and Good Luck
Animal House
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sony's media/format stuborness is what landed them in the bad spot they are in today, and also a big part of why Ken got the boot.
Looks like someone has does the reaseach on forum posts and reached that conclusion: http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10013

Take it for what you will! ;)

As for Combo disks, I've just taken a look at Amazon and seen that there are a few, but right now the most notable appears to be Superman Returns. In the interim this could be quite an important feature - currently I have lots of DVD players around the house, and if I were to plump for an HD format anytime soon I'd probably only have one in the living room. If I were to buy an HD only disk then I can use that in only one place, but a combo disk allows me to use it all round the house. Even though I don't have an HD player yet, I'm more inclined to go out and buy the HD DVD / DVD combo version right now.
 
Back
Top