Cracking Hydrocarbons

Well then you have proven my point that people overestimate the cost. Thank-you. I was afraid you might be someone who was well aware that the cost would not be excessive and would prove the exception to my generalization.
My main concern is that I don't think we have a good way to transport a lot of H2 over long distances. Building the station itself with its H2 tanks isn't nearly as difficult.

Btw, I found another interesting link in wikipedia. In short they say that H2 is not exactly energy efficient fuel compared to even gasoline, not to mention electricity.

Of course with electric cars we are back to square one with having to rebuild the power grid and add a whole lot of powerplants. Though I think in the long run it would be wiser to do that instead of going fully H2 as power grid maintenance cost should be cheaper compared to H2 transportation system and as energy usage is constantly rising it wouldn't hurt anyway. Also H2 production should need quite a lot of power also.
Over night charging of electric vehicles would not be as stressful as one might think.
I once calculated how much power it would take to fully recharge this car. IIRC it would take a total of around 180kW/h of power to fully recharge the battery, over 8h it is around 22kW of constant load*. Most households do not use up as much (180kW/h) power over a week. E.g I with two roommates in 45m^2 flat with three PC's running 24/7, four CRT monitors, old CRT TV, few consoles, fridge and electric oven use around 400kW/h per month and we are not trying too much to save energy.

*) for some chuckle try to find out the amperage it takes to recharge the battery at their advertised 10min for 90% charge and imagine what wires it would take ;)


Another fun calculation to make is to try to find out how much more power it would take to keep electric cars running. Ten years ago there was around 600M cars all over the world. If 25% of those would be electric cars that travel 10000 miles per year (~16k km) having the same efficiency as Lihgtning GT (35kW per 400km) then they would need a total of 40 full recharges per year. That would mean around 150M cars * 35kW ~= 5TW of electricity per year without counting for transmission and charging efficiency and battery aging. That is a whole lot of power. In 2004 world produced around 15TW of energy, most of what was heat and not electricity.

To be honest when I started that last calculation I didn't actually expect to see that big numbers. Kind of frightening.


PS! If I made errors anywhere point them out. I'm not 100% sure in the calculations but I hope they are correct.
 
this car. IIRC it would take a total of around 180kW/h of power to fully recharge the battery, over 8h it is around 22kW of constant load*. Most households do not use up as much (180kW/h) power over a week.

Huh? I was under the impression that charge/discharge efficiency was close to 100% for lithium ion batteries. The battery capacity of the car you linked is 35 kwh. Over 8 hours that's 4.4 kW.

And that's with a 250 mile range. At a more reasonable distance to work people would drive some 25-100 miles a day, which puts the required power draw for recharging over 8 hours at 440 W- 1.1 kW.
 
Huh? I was under the impression that charge/discharge efficiency was close to 100% for lithium ion batteries. The battery capacity of the car you linked is 35 kwh. Over 8 hours that's 4.4 kW.

And that's with a 250 mile range. At a more reasonable distance to work people would drive some 25-100 miles a day, which puts the required power draw for recharging over 8 hours at 440 W- 1.1 kW.
It isn't 100% but it is near to 80-90%.
 
PS! If I made errors anywhere point them out. I'm not 100% sure in the calculations but I hope they are correct.

Not that this is constructive criticism or anything, but you'd fail a physics exam with these calculations by misusing units for power and energy all over the place.

Unit for power is kW. If you consume energy for one our with average power of 35kW, you have spent 35kWh on it, not 35kW/h. Unit kW/h does not make sense for anything.

If the world's power production was 15TW, that means power, not energy. Multiply that by hours in one year to get energy production number.
 
SMR means steam methane reforming. So you take Natural Gas-->H2 that is 85% efficient some say it can approach 90%, but 85% is reasonable.
Is there enough methane supply to power H2 cars? The first priority is using natural gas for heating in homes, because electric heating is grossly inefficient.

I agree with you about nuclear power, though. If we had a long term strategy for moving away from using fossil fuels for electricity generation, then it wouldn't be too bad to have carbon based H2 or electrolysis for a couple decades of transition. However, it seems like electrical storage is a bit more practical at this point since there's no infrastructure problem and the efficiency ceiling is much higher. Until we rule that out (due to driving range or whatever), I don't see reason for moving towards H2.
 
It isn't 100% but it is near to 80-90%.

Wikipedia claims 99.9%. Do they mean efficiency in some other terms? Perhaps the upper bound of efficiency if you ignore internal resistances and such?

Perhaps much of the loss is in the charging unit that steps down voltage and converts it to DC?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm not 100% sure in the calculations but I hope they are correct.
They're close. Only off by a few orders of magnitude. ;)

A) It's 35 kWh per 400 km.
B) You forgot the factor of 40. Those cars would consume 210 billion kWh.
C) World electricity consumption is 16 trillion kWh.

So under your assumptions, that's 1.3%.
 
Did anyone state yet that the claim made in the opening post is ridiculous?

There are very many, very huge companies, like DOW, that spend a lot of energy breaking stuff down to ethylene. Such a plant costs a few billion to build, and many millions annually to operate. No matter how far-fetched, if it could save them a buck, they would scrutinize and use it, if viable.

And it would create 16 times more energy in the form of fuel than it would take to operate? It takes quite a lot of energy to rip those molecules apart, you know. Everything else being equal, it takes the same amount of energy to reduce molecules, as is created by combining. And while the molecules in each stage are different, those bonds aren't holding 17 times more energy.

It's a hoax.
 
And it would create 16 times more energy in the form of fuel than it would take to operate? It takes quite a lot of energy to rip those molecules apart, you know. Everything else being equal, it takes the same amount of energy to reduce molecules, as is created by combining. And while the molecules in each stage are different, those bonds aren't holding 17 times more energy.

Err... Ever heard of oil refineries? You know, where they crack hydrocarbons of oil to create fuels and stuff? You think they've been running on negative energy balance for all these years? You think they build the molecules first and then start cracking them?

Key word is 'operate'. When you are operating your computer and pay your electricity bill, they don't charge you for the energy that was spent in manufacturing your computer.
 
Yes, in relatively short term it could be an alternative. Though currently only ~6% of energy is produced with fission. It will be difficult (and expensive) to build enough nuclear powerplants to provide enough enery. Not to mention it would still need major infrastructure modifications to even think about using lots of electricity powered cars.

Nah. Even crappy regular LWRs are nearly on price parity with coal when all costs are included. If you were to include the externalities of coal power it's not even a contest. We could use that coal for coal to liquids or something, burning it for electricity is tremendously stupid.

A good start would be to not build any new coal(unless CCS works out) and start replacing the aging and most inefficient coal power with renewables(in particular geothermal in the SW US, solar and wind) and nuclear. Given a few decades you ought to be able to rid yourself of coal and fossil fuel based NG(unlikely to still be competitive economically). The most significant hurdles for nuclear fission is public perception and rounding up enough qualified personal to man them should they be adopted very quickly.

There's no question that the grid won't be able to deal with electric SUVs. I'm not sure smaller(<1 tonne) electric cars would be such a problem for the current infrastructure.

There's no shortage of land poorly suited for food on which to grow biomass(e.g. a mixture of prarie grasses); there are many methods of converting biomass to fuel and it's very likely that BTL(convert to syn-gas, make fuel(s) of choice), cellulosic ethanol etc. will eventually be price competitive with gasoline. I see no reason to suspect all-electric to be the short-term solution. Unlike just growing corn, the soil errosion for many energy crops is minimal even if take much of the plant and the fertilizer demand is very low.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A good start would be to not build any new coal(unless CCS works out) and start replacing the aging and most inefficient coal power with renewables(in particular geothermal in the SW US, solar and wind) and nuclear.
Haven't you heard? Nuclear is also apparently a renewable source of energy. :LOL:

Even if you can manage to convince people that nuclear is a good idea, the time it will take before something even begins construction will be years. Well over a decade for a single nuclear plant.

There's no question that the grid won't be able to deal with electric SUVs. I'm not sure smaller(<1 tonne) electric cars would be such a problem for the current infrastructure.
But then you have the problem of public perception again. Making people accept the idea of small low-power lightweight cars when they've been used to buying land boats with massive displacement and ridiculous horsepower (albeit pretty lousy for an engine of that displacement)

There's no shortage of land poorly suited for food on which to grow biomass(e.g. a mixture of prarie grasses); there are many methods of converting biomass to fuel and it's very likely that BTL(convert to syn-gas, make fuel(s) of choice), cellulosic ethanol etc. will eventually be price competitive with gasoline. I see no reason to suspect all-electric to be the short-term solution. Unlike just growing corn, the soil errosion for many energy crops is minimal even if take much of the plant and the fertilizer demand is very low.
Shortage of land isn't always the problem. Prarie grasses and waste wood sound like some sort of cure to the cost of field maintenance, fertilization, irrigation etc... but the technology to make good use of it isn't there yet. And of course, as you said, corn and sugar cane aren't suitable for the US to make a meaningful ethanol yield. Biodiesel is far better in terms of what we can do right now, but getting people to move to diesel is nearly every bit as hard as getting them to buy tiny electric 2-seaters. The main advantage of ethanol is that it requires minimal modifications to most existing vehicles on the road, so the uptake can be quick.

I don't know anybody posing all-electric or fuel cell as a *short-term* solution, though. I don't think battery technology or hydrogen-delivery infrastructure is even a fraction of a percent of the way to what we'd really need. Maybe in a few decades, it'll be ready.
 
Haven't you heard? Nuclear is also apparently a renewable source of energy. :LOL:

No energy source is truly renewable. We could, if we desired, replace the entire worlds electricity consumption for millenia with nuclear power at current levels. We'll voluntarily stop using fission when we get fusion on line or anything else that's cheaper(geothermal, solar and wind will be competitive in a large fraction of locations). So for all intents and purposes fission is de facto 'renewable'.

'proven reserves' refer to what is economical to mine at current prices. Nuclear energy is almost immune to the price of uranium, so reserves will grow extensively if fission is still competetive and we're starting to run out of uranium.

What we call nuclear waste is actually something like ~96% U-238, ~1% PU(fissionable), ~3% actual waste and some small quantity of unfissioned U-235, depending on reactor and enrichment of fuel elements.

U-238 is turned into plutonium in normal reactors by neutron absorbtion, but not at high enough rates to transmute more U-238 into plutonium than U-235/PU that is burnt in the reactor. Fast breeder reactors manage this feat. There are two reasons fast breeders aren't in use outside of experimental reactors.

The first reason is proliferation. This was a reasonable objection when it is was supposed that trans-uranics would have to be separated; but it is not nescessary for trans-uranics to be distinguished, and you can instead just seperate them from the waste. This can be done at the nuclear plant, so that no trans-uranics ever leave the plant. The fuel will be highly active and it would be almost impossible to steal it; even if you manage to do so you have to extract and purify the PU and that's very difficult without the proper facillities and radiation shielding. It would be easier to simply buy yellow cake and refine with centrifuges.

The second reason is cost. Natural uranium is such a negligible cost of nuclear power that we don't have to care about using a sensible fuel cycle. I beleive that vitrifying and burrying 'waste' would be a mistake, when we do not yet know if we'll eventually use breeders. It makes no economical sense to incur the extra bill of materials and operating costs.

Another benefit of breeders is that you can burn the actinid components of the waste(the components of waste that have half-lifes of centuries) in the reactor. This means the actual waste will only be above background for a handful of centuries.

Breeders allow us to use all of the U-238('depleted uranium') as fuel in the reactor. As U-235 is only .7% of natural uranium this extends the fuel supply by a factor of ~140. This will last longer than we're ever likely to need it. You can further extend the supply of nuclear fuel by breeding thorium into U-233; thorium is a factor 5 or so more abundant in the Earth's crust.

Even if you can manage to convince people that nuclear is a good idea, the time it will take before something even begins construction will be years. Well over a decade for a single nuclear plant.

That includes non-standard technology and red tape. E.g. Planned construction time for a third generation standardized VVER-1200 is ~54 months. There are some plans for nuclear plants that use more standardized elements which could cut construction times to around 3-4 years.

But then you have the problem of public perception again. Making people accept the idea of small low-power lightweight cars when they've been used to buying land boats with massive displacement and ridiculous horsepower (albeit pretty lousy for an engine of that displacement)

It's only cool to waste something that's abundant. If gasoline where to go up in price because of limited availability or if people payed the real price of gasoline(political, health and environmental cost included) it wouldn't look so sexy anymore.

Shortage of land isn't always the problem. Prarie grasses and waste wood sound like some sort of cure to the cost of field maintenance, fertilization, irrigation etc... but the technology to make good use of it isn't there yet.

Both BTL and cellulose to ethanol are still comming down rapidly in price and are expected to be competitive with oil in just a few years. There's no reason to expect this trend to stop.

And of course, as you said, corn and sugar cane aren't suitable for the US to make a meaningful ethanol yield. Biodiesel is far better in terms of what we can do right now, but getting people to move to diesel is nearly every bit as hard as getting them to buy tiny electric 2-seaters. The main advantage of ethanol is that it requires minimal modifications to most existing vehicles on the road, so the uptake can be quick.

Energy balance is actually fairly similar at current tech(~2).

Disregarding algea which are in a class of their own; yields per acre of cellulose vs. oil aren't close for easily harvestable crops. The limiting factor for derivatives of cellulose(ethanol, butanol, syn gas derivatives etc.) is the production process. The limiting factor for oil is the crop. This makes me believe cellulose has more legs than oil production(disregarding algea).

I don't know anybody posing all-electric or fuel cell as a *short-term* solution, though. I don't think battery technology or hydrogen-delivery infrastructure is even a fraction of a percent of the way to what we'd really need. Maybe in a few decades, it'll be ready.

I beleive it will be an important component of mitigating oil dependency in the short term. It makes a tremendous difference if tiny 2-seater EV's replace 20% of ICEs over the comming few decades. I believe the perception problem will persists only as long as oil is still cheap and I believe oil still has a long way upwards to go before there's any potential of it starting to get cheaper.(there's a lag before the current boom in drilling rig production, test drilling and other exploration leads to mature oil fields).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Then again, there are no breeder reactors that could reliably be used to mass-recycle those waste products, and nobody yet knows how to build one. The ones in operation are very unreliable, small-scale and hugely expensive to operate.

That also goes for more efficient "generation IV" fission reactors, that use very high temperatures and pressures, with a molten salt or metal as production medium.

And while there is very much uranium on Earth, the extraction isn't the problem. The processing and enriching is. 99.999% of all naturally occuring uranium is unusable as fuel when extracted. And when you have the plants to enrich it for use as fuel, you can also make nukes in the bargain.
 
Err... Ever heard of oil refineries? You know, where they crack hydrocarbons of oil to create fuels and stuff? You think they've been running on negative energy balance for all these years? You think they build the molecules first and then start cracking them?

Key word is 'operate'. When you are operating your computer and pay your electricity bill, they don't charge you for the energy that was spent in manufacturing your computer.
Well, refineries don't crack any molecules at all. They just separate them according to their molecular weight. If they do, they're not simple refineries.

And if you do crack them, it does take quite a lot of energy. They generally burn anything but the target molecules left to supply the energy needed.
 
Well, refineries don't crack any molecules at all. They just separate them according to their molecular weight. If they do, they're not simple refineries.

Simple or not, they do it.

And if you do crack them, it does take quite a lot of energy. They generally burn anything but the target molecules left to supply the energy needed.

Nobody said it wouldn't take a lot of energy, but you said it would not be worth the energy usage, since making up the molecules would take at minimum the same amount of energy that could be later harvested from cracking products. Of course it wouldn't IF we had to first synthesize the longer molecules, but why on earth would we do that (usage of waste and other useless byproducts exempted)?
 
Then again, there are no breeder reactors that could reliably be used to mass-recycle those waste products, and nobody yet knows how to build one. The ones in operation are very unreliable, small-scale and hugely expensive to operate.

That also goes for more efficient "generation IV" fission reactors, that use very high temperatures and pressures, with a molten salt or metal as production medium.
This is strawman logic. It doesn't matter if we can't re-use that fuel, or if we have to stick with current efficiency. Fuel cost and environmental impact are tremendously low per unit of energy produced right now, and a factor of 10 improvement won't change anything.

And while there is very much uranium on Earth, the extraction isn't the problem. The processing and enriching is. 99.999% of all naturally occuring uranium is unusable as fuel when extracted. And when you have the plants to enrich it for use as fuel, you can also make nukes in the bargain.
Ever look at CANDU reactors?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANDU
When it was designed, Canada lacked access to uranium enrichment facilities, which were then extremely expensive to construct and operate. The CANDU was therefore designed to use natural uranium as its fuel. Traditional designs using light water as a moderator will absorb too many neutrons to allow a chain reaction to occur in natural uranium due to the low density of "active" nuclei. Heavy water absorbs fewer neutrons than light water, allowing a high "neutron economy" that can sustain a chain reaction even in unenriched fuel.
 
Back
Top