xaeroxcore
Newcomer
This thread should come back to life.... Amazing data!
Lighting flatness was the major thing that annoyed me in general with DC graphics. That said, the texture detail and image quality was pristine for it's time. These were areas the PS2 had a hard time matching.I have enjoyed reading this thread for the first time, so xaeroxcore, appreciate you reanimating it. Also I believe this may be my first post here even though I've been a member for a while, so hello everyone.
I certainly find it fascinating to explore the "what ifs" in relation to the Dreamcast, considering how short it's retail life was. I have always wondered what could have been accomplished if that system had be afforded a 5 or 6 year life span, and what interesting tricks and efficiencies these amazing developers would have found out in time. Just look at any reasonably successful system and compare it's first generation games to 3rd and 4th, there is usually a decent increase in graphics and gameplay.
I see that the discussion was centered around the question of whether the DC could handle VF4, and funny enough I have put a considerable amount of time into that game recently after dusting off the PS2. Pretty impressive what Sega pulled off on that system, and I do believe a reasonable facsimile of the game could have been done on the Dreamcast. But reasonable for me, probably was not for the Sega team developing it or the diehard VF4 players.
The polygon counts of VF4 probably would not have been the largest hurdle for the Dreamcast, when taking into account that character polygon counts of the PS2 version are even a bit lower than the DOA 2, and I feel the stages could be replicated to a sufficient amount, deformable snow/sand probably would have had to go, maybe. However it is the lighting model of VF4 that I think the DC would have had a considerable issue with, meaning it couldn't do it at a high polygon count.
I'm no programmer, and I have no idea how much of a processing burden lighting is when creating a 3D engine, but I would think very substantial. I recently saw the polygon counts for DOA 2 and guesstimate that the DC is pushing around 2.9 mio polys at it's highest number, taking the known polygon counts per character and stages then averaging them out to obtain just over 49,000 polys per frame. Impressive IMO, one of the best looking DC games in existence, but probably not hitting that amount most of the time, and you have to admit the lighting is a bit flat, like many DC games.
Now, my certainly layman's mind was thinking, if you could cut the polygon rendering budget by 30% and use some of that for lighting computation, it could make a pretty decent looking version. Certainly better in relation to the arcade original than say, the Saturn VF2 to it's arcade forbearer. That would be a game that still would hit "potentially" 2 mio polygons per second, and with talented artists I'm thinking that could go along way toward the issue of stage design, but how close is close enough?
In the end as much as I appreciate the Dreamcast and it's place in console gaming history, I bet Sega would have opted not to bring it to DC because the game would be too compromised in their opinion. Still a DC version of VF4 pushing the system for all it's worth would have certainly been something to experience.
I just saw a Project Justice stage for the first time that had interesting lighting scenario. It was raining and lighting would light up the whole stage something I had not seen on a DC fighting game before, except for perhaps Soul Calibur. Would be interesting to know the polygon counts of Project Justice.
Thanks for reading the thoughts of an old gamer.
Lighting flatness was the major thing that annoyed me in general with DC graphics. That said, the texture detail and image quality was pristine for it's time. These were areas the PS2 had a hard time matching.
Overall DC games looked splendid and had a distinctive arcadey style.
We probably might have seen some interesting results on the console. Near the end of it's life we saw games that the PS2 could not match like for like. It is interesting how different these architectures were, and thus their most impressive titles would not necessarily be able to be recreated on each other despite that the PS2 was considered overall more powerful.
The DC would never be able to recreate faithfully MGS2, Tekken Tag, Gran Turismo, Silent Hill 3 or Devil May Cry, but I don't think the PS2 would be able to recreate Shenmue or Sonic Adventure 2 accurately either.
Sonic Heroes lacked in every aspect next to both Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 on the DC.
That said, I am really curious how well the DC would have hypothetically be able to recreate Tekken 5. It looks flat compared to Tekken 4 and TTT and dear I say DOA2 probably looked better.
I am also very curious why we didn't see some Model 3 games. Scud Race was a superb looking game and holds well even today. So was Daytona 2. It never got any of thease early Model 3 games. It got a version of Sega Rally 2 that looked noticeably inferior to its Arcade version and Daytona 2001 was underwhelming compared to 2.
I suspect some technical issues as no racing game on the DC looked that good. I think that even PS2 would have had a hard time running these games well enough.
AFAIK Model 3 is faster in some areas than a Dreamcast, which is to be expected from a very very expensive arcade board from 2 years prior to the console's release. Model 3 also saw some revisions through the years and I believe the last one of them had quite a bit higher specs, so games released with those specs in mind would have somewhat of a hard time on the Dreamcast. Again, the DC was faster in some areas, slower in others.
I agree though, they should have brought more arcade ports, it is such a shame that Scud Race and Daytona USA 2 never saw a home release. One could argue however, that it was SEGA's insistence on pushing arcade ports on home consoles that got them out of the hardware business, as by 1998-1999, people started expecting different sorts of games from their home consoles. Anyway, on the subject of Sega Rally 2, not only does it look inferior to the Arcade version, but it also run like utter crap too. A lot of people blame Windows CE for that, but I have no comment on this. There was a code that allowed you to unlock the framerate from 30fps and also lower some of the details, but it never was consistent.
The PC version from 1999 is actually really good, especially compared to SEGA's previous attempts at bringing 3D arcade titles to the PC. It is almost arcade perfect and it runs pretty well on period correct hardware!
Garret you very correct on this. I believe there were 3 revisions of the Model 3 board over the years: Model 3 1.5, 2.0 and 2.1. I believe it was 2.0 that had the rather substantial horsepower increase, 6mio polys per second if that is correct/official. It is interesting to note that Scud Race (Super GT) and Daytona USA 2/Power Edition were on revisions 1.5 and 2.0 respectively. Perhaps this plays into why they were not ported to Dreamcast, as those revisions upped the polygon power of Model 3.
Sega Rally 2 also runs on revision 2.0, and it suffered. Could it be that those are too much for Dreamcast to handle and be true enough to the arcade version? Or was it simple early programming hurdles on a newly release console.... hmm. With what we eventually received on Dreamcast I'd like to hope for the latter, but who knows.
Fighting Vipers was also on revision 2, I never had that game unfortunately. Anyone that had it on Dreamcast and also played the arcade version, how does that conversion compare?
So do you believe that the DC was more than capable at running perfectly these games?Smilebit I believe ported Sega rally 2 using Windows CE to the Dreamcast. The overhead of it proved too much and loss of performance was noticeable.Not to mention it had splitscreen.Dreamcast is quite capable Virtual on oratorio tangram was step 2.0 it's polygon count was intact but texture quality and lighting suffered. Then Virtua striker 2 ver99 was step 2.1 and it's nearly perfect, only difference I notice was more aggressive l.o.d on the players and more aggressive clipping of players off screen With slight texture downgrade on stadium.
Fighting vipers 2 is less impressive. Some characters are slightly simplified but not too bad. The stages took a massive hit. A lot of the props were replaced by 2d versions and some parts of the stage were simply cut out replaced with 2d image. The textures for the stages took a massive hit as well. Consider that virtual fighter 3 was only missing like 10 percent if it's polygon count and written on Naomi then ported to prototype Dreamcast programming libraries while being ported by people who were not the developers. That was way more impressive. Vf3 gets too much negative press if anything I wouldn't be surprised if pushes polygon counts similar to Dead or alive 2 or double the polygon count than soul calibur.
AFAIK Model 3 is faster in some areas than a Dreamcast, which is to be expected from a very very expensive arcade board from 2 years prior to the console's release. Model 3 also saw some revisions through the years and I believe the last one of them had quite a bit higher specs, so games released with those specs in mind would have somewhat of a hard time on the Dreamcast. Again, the DC was faster in some areas, slower in others.
I agree though, they should have brought more arcade ports, it is such a shame that Scud Race and Daytona USA 2 never saw a home release. One could argue however, that it was SEGA's insistence on pushing arcade ports on home consoles that got them out of the hardware business, as by 1998-1999, people started expecting different sorts of games from their home consoles. Anyway, on the subject of Sega Rally 2, not only does it look inferior to the Arcade version, but it also run like utter crap too. A lot of people blame Windows CE for that, but I have no comment on this. There was a code that allowed you to unlock the framerate from 30fps and also lower some of the details, but it never was consistent.
The PC version from 1999 is actually really good, especially compared to SEGA's previous attempts at bringing 3D arcade titles to the PC. It is almost arcade perfect and it runs pretty well on period correct hardware!
Smilebit I believe ported Sega rally 2 using Windows CE to the Dreamcast. The overhead of it proved too much and loss of performance was noticeable.Not to mention it had splitscreen.Dreamcast is quite capable Virtual on oratorio tangram was step 2.0 it's polygon count was intact but texture quality and lighting suffered. Then Virtua striker 2 ver99 was step 2.1 and it's nearly perfect, only difference I notice was more aggressive l.o.d on the players and more aggressive clipping of players off screen With slight texture downgrade on stadium.
Fighting vipers 2 is less impressive. Some characters are slightly simplified but not too bad. The stages took a massive hit. A lot of the props were replaced by 2d versions and some parts of the stage were simply cut out replaced with 2d image. The textures for the stages took a massive hit as well. Consider that virtual fighter 3 was only missing like 10 percent if it's polygon count and written on Naomi then ported to prototype Dreamcast programming libraries while being ported by people who were not the developers. That was way more impressive. Vf3 gets too much negative press if anything I wouldn't be surprised if pushes polygon counts similar to Dead or alive 2 or double the polygon count than soul calibur.
Here we go again with the old tired argument that "it was all Sega of America's and Bernie Stolar's fault"
The Sega Dreamcast was designed in such a way that it would avoid all mistakes done by Sega of Japan for the Sega Saturn.
Dreamcast's hardware was developer friendly and at the time of release it was very powerful. It was cheap to manufacture and compact. Expecting it to go again all exotic, expensive hard to develop arcade style hardware was just insane. I think you hoped that the Dreamcast would have been the console that would have mimicked the Saturn and prove everyone wrong.
Well it wouldnt have worked.
Anyways we know that Naomi 2 was much more powerful. But wasnt Naomi 1 supposed to be more powerful than the Model 3? DOA2 was a perfect port AFAIK and it was Naomi1 based. It looked superior than VF3 and FV2. The question is could the Dreamcast play Scud Race and Daytona USA 2 perfectly? Or what about Sega Rally 2?
What about so many other Model 3 tiles? Or was the Model 3 revisions much more powerful to the point that in some areas it was more powerful?
We don't even know if the thing could run well enough on the newer PS2 if ported. How can you be so sure that Sega was able to release an affordable console in 1999 that could do it? I cant find even a single PS2 game that looked that good. Regardless, why should you blame Bernie Storlar and Sega of America for it?The Bernie Stolar created Sega Dreamcast never delivered on those claims and questions you are making, it never delivered a racer, not even by a third party that could surpass Scud Race and Daytona USA 2 and we all know what happened to Sega Rally 2 which never got a Sega Rally 2 Apology for using rubbish WinCE coding.
So you are basically comparing a Sega Saturn made into an arcade machine that was super inferior to Model 2 and 3, to expensive state of the art hardware built from the ground up for the Arcade that had to be translated into a home console.The Sega ST-V was meant to be not just Sega Saturn being used as arcade hardware but it was leagues more affordable than the OLDER and far more expensive Sega Model 2... likewise it is not hard to look up specs on NAOMI 1 which features a faster clocked graphics chip which kinda spells out to anyone that the NAOMI 1 is faster than Dreamcast, not only that but the NAOMI 1 simply NEVER outperformed Sega Model 3, not even under wishful thinking by buying into the marketing hype or Sega Hikaru would never have made sense to exist.
You are puting words in my mouth. Sega accounted for developer friendliness, and cost efficiency and delivered the best they could in 1999. Sega was counting shipped units not sold to consumers in Japan. The PS1 was doing superb in Japan with reports actually stating that units sold to consumers were higher with Sony's machine And even if it was the case, whole of Sega had to listen to the authority of Sega of Japan, and ignore their own markets, as if Japan alone was huge enough as a market to stop Sega from bleeding.Also your opening sentence of ridicule for my post seems to just imply that just because a console is NEW that it is all of a sudden revolutionary cutting edge technology when the Dreamcast never, NEVER was and that stuff about avoiding mistakes by Sega Japan?... The Sega Saturn was actually more expensive than the Sony PlayStation and was out selling it in Japan from launch in 1994 to at least either late 1996 to early 1997.
I am a technology fan first, however if you have a fail crew at the marketing helm it is not a surprise that your product will fail and there were just way too many erratic decisions and initiatives made in North America that most so called tech fans are rather blind to see despite printed gamer magazine articles where certain PR staff made incriminating statements or where their advertising tactics along with dumb marketing can still be found as well as angry 32X letters in the mail section.
YES indeed it was Sega of America who failed here, they were failing to market the Sega Genesis and SegaCD and they completely dropped the ball on the Sega Saturn launch which is no surprise that the system failed as we are not talking here about recent trends of gangbuster sale numbers but at least a steady transitional sales which can only be possible if gamers and consumers were getting the proper marketing...
You focus too much on a short living success on one small region. Sony had market share success, the hardware and the money. Expecting that Square and Enix would have supported the Saturn instead of the Playstation if it wasnt for Sega of America doesn't sound very logical from their business successVideo game consoles are not Ferraris or ?Lambos or Buggattis or super car Lexus models where there are completely different factors at play so just the assumption that it has to be super fast and overclocked is rather missing the point and this really has to stop because the old school consoles simply did not work that way and btw Sega Japan was not really expecting the Sega Saturn to sell out at launch and propel Sega Japan to first place which got them contractual audiences to negotiate terms with Square and Enix which were separate and competing entities which simply went to Sony due to the combination of Sega of America fail crew tactics and Sony money hatting. Anything beyond not acknowledging the real history is delusional.
Those facts reveal mostly that if Sega of Japan was more cooperative with Sega of America they could have made a better Saturn. All proposals were rejected by Sega of Japan, including the chance to collaborate with Sony to create a console with them. At the end they went with the complex last minute decision hardware choices that did not help the Saturn at all, 100% designed with Sega of Japan's inputAlso I can use factual actions taken in the past as it is written that Sega of America which was back then supposed to be a subsidiary was essentially telling the engineers at Sega Japan what CPU they should use on Project Saturn... That Sega of America staff was NOT around when the Sega MegaDrive was made and neither were they employed when the Sega Genesis launched... nuff said and not trying to make it look like a baseless argument.
The Bernie Stolar created Sega Dreamcast never delivered on those claims and questions you are making, it never delivered a racer, not even by a third party that could surpass Scud Race and Daytona USA 2 and we all know what happened to Sega Rally 2 which never got a Sega Rally 2 Apology for using rubbish WinCE coding.
The Sega ST-V was meant to be not just Sega Saturn being used as arcade hardware but it was leagues more affordable than the OLDER and far more expensive Sega Model 2... likewise it is not hard to look up specs on NAOMI 1 which features a faster clocked graphics chip which kinda spells out to anyone that the NAOMI 1 is faster than Dreamcast, not only that but the NAOMI 1 simply NEVER outperformed Sega Model 3, not even under wishful thinking by buying into the marketing hype or Sega Hikaru would never have made sense to exist.
Also your opening sentence of ridicule for my post seems to just imply that just because a console is NEW that it is all of a sudden revolutionary cutting edge technology when the Dreamcast never, NEVER was and that stuff about avoiding mistakes by Sega Japan?... The Sega Saturn was actually more expensive than the Sony PlayStation and was out selling it in Japan from launch in 1994 to at least either late 1996 to early 1997.
I am a technology fan first, however if you have a fail crew at the marketing helm it is not a surprise that your product will fail and there were just way too many erratic decisions and initiatives made in North America that most so called tech fans are rather blind to see despite printed gamer magazine articles where certain PR staff made incriminating statements or where their advertising tactics along with dumb marketing can still be found as well as angry 32X letters in the mail section.
YES indeed it was Sega of America who failed here, they were failing to market the Sega Genesis and SegaCD and they completely dropped the ball on the Sega Saturn launch which is no surprise that the system failed as we are not talking here about recent trends of gangbuster sale numbers but at least a steady transitional sales which can only be possible if gamers and consumers were getting the proper marketing...
Video game consoles are not Ferraris or ?Lambos or Buggattis or super car Lexus models where there are completely different factors at play so just the assumption that it has to be super fast and overclocked is rather missing the point and this really has to stop because the old school consoles simply did not work that way and btw Sega Japan was not really expecting the Sega Saturn to sell out at launch and propel Sega Japan to first place which got them contractual audiences to negotiate terms with Square and Enix which were separate and competing entities which simply went to Sony due to the combination of Sega of America fail crew tactics and Sony money hatting. Anything beyond not acknowledging the real history is delusional.
Also I can use factual actions taken in the past as it is written that Sega of America which was back then supposed to be a subsidiary was essentially telling the engineers at Sega Japan what CPU they should use on Project Saturn... That Sega of America staff was NOT around when the Sega MegaDrive was made and neither were they employed when the Sega Genesis launched... nuff said and not trying to make it look like a baseless argument.
So do you believe that the DC was more than capable at running perfectly these games?
We have to check which games were perfect ports and how much these games pushed the hardware if any.
Dreamcast which was technologically inferior to Sega Saturn
Well some people still live in the good old 80s-90s where rumors and ideal scenarios about hidden sauce made gaming more interesting. Some hardcore fans just cant let go of the myth that Sega Saturn's special architecture could have potentially destroyed competition if it wasn't for Sony's easy development, money hatting, and dev laziness.I must have misread this line, like seriously.
took a screenshot of what I was talking about. These polygon count are probably wrong seeing how I extracted them from demul but we can still use them to compare how the gameis stack up. I chose virtua fighter 3, fighting vipers 2 , virtua striker 2 , virtual on 2 and planet harriers from hikaru.
As you can see in the upper right corner where it says tris for triangle , the two non- AM2 ported games virtua fighter 3 and virtua striker 2 have the highest. Seems like genki had better grip on the dc hardware than am2 because fighting vipers 2 is only a third of those two in tri count. You could argue Vf3 is step 1 and fv 2 is step 2 but Virtua striker is step 2.1 and is probably close to arcade perfect. If you look at virtual on 2 its not even in the running, I guess its not a demanding game despite how pretty it is or the fact its step 2.0. I also added plnaet harrier just to show how hikaru games most likely could have been ported as geometry wise they are with in a comfortable grasp of the dreamcast.
virtua fighter 3:
View attachment 2785
fighting vipers 2:
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virtua striker 2
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virtual on oratorio tangram:
View attachment 2786
planet harriers hikaru arcade board:
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