Could Dreamcast et al handle this/that game/effect? *DC tech retrospective *spawn

[EsppiraK]

I was going to show some interesting features and tricks in TTT visuals, that have been carefully treated to achieve it's visual presentation.

I m going to post some images when I have the time.

Namco experimented with the desired look offline and then tried to replicate them as close as possible. There was even an offline concept render shown by Namco before PS2 was fully revealed of Howarang's stage and Nina, taking place in a similar setting and lighting condition as in TTT.

A lot of elements in the environment were offline rendered and baked into textures. A great example is the indoor Ogre stage. The symmetry of the stage was a great trick to add a lot of detail and mirror the detail without killing the limited VRAM. Eddy's stage also has this on the huge background rock that looks like it's normal mapped. The grass shadows were also rendered offline, baked on texture and re added to the realtime ground with the grass planes

Elements that are dynamic in nature (material effects that can't be faked and lighting) were manually replicated in EV maps and lighting was adjusted to mimic the color values of the offline render as much as possible. The lighting in TTT is the best implementation I ve seen that gives the illusion of proto-global illumination. Other elements like volumetric lighting were skillfully replicated via alphas (Jin's stage)

Hues on characters come from the right directions, often mimicking light bounce from the environment. Even the ground (see Xiaoyu's stage reflecting a metalic hue from underneath or Yoshimitsu's stage, where The underneath of characters receive color values that give the illusion that the snow is reflecting white light on them). It's all a trick but does wonders in blending all elements and give a CG look.

Textures look like they are sampled from real life materials

Namco also handled properly baked textures in background objects were they could such us objects that can be duplicated and still look natural in the environments lighting and angles. I.e the wooden columns in Jin's stage I believe have baked speculars into the texture. But I d like to see a free camera hack to confirm. Golden lion statues probably due to their complicated detail didn't look right therefore they also relied on baked textures to mimick a metalic look, not actual metalic material. Heihachi's statue in School stage is fully metalic. It saves memory to have duplicated objects with one metalic material, rather than have two textures with baked lighting for each due to different placement in the environment.

On the other hand most, if not all metal objects in Nina's stage are metalic with EVs. That stage does some thing really interesting though. The floor has some detail that doesn't look geometrical from some angles but the lighting behaves so convincingly that they look like they are either normal mapped or geometrical protrucions. The protrucions are too smooth to believe they were actually modelled. If it's just specular maps that's some crazy magic Namco has done there.

How did you get that info? Did you extract the models? Or just by observation?

 

[Sonicfan]

Its basically the same ideas but with a few tweaks . They seem to use an alpha map for some form of control over the specular layer and an (red)env map on that layer. For stuff like jins flame pants they did small clever cheat, they modeled the flame tips into the mesh to make it seem very accurate. stuff like that. I asked the Sc2 dreamcast model guy what he thinks, he did a rough small test and it seems like alpha map+ env map on fake material on top of regular texture gives is a silky subdued sheen(and if like jins pant fire modeled in gives the illusion of something more complex). This is on ninja2 for dreamcast so I guess there wouldnt be anything stopping from doing this on dc. Just the cost of model x2.

Another way they could do it could be using actual materials, for example in the second test he did he shows that ninja2 on dc allowed to set specular strength/size and even color! It wont be quite the same but at least you woud still have alot of control over it if you apply it as multiple sub materials. It isnt free , Specular highlights still a hit to the dc cpu since it adds complexity to the lighting but its probably cheaper than having mesh x2 I imagine. Definitely would require testing. Alot could have been done with this.

The fake material approach of (red)env map + alpha mask on base texture for silkier look(rough test), highlight visible in center:

Actual material setting with control over the specular highlights, same 1 light(white) but specular highlight has its own stat for harshness / color/ how concentrated per material :

Nice! Doesn't look like they'd need to double up on geometry everywhere. Just spots where they'd want the effect. I will say i think speculars would work well enough. Doa2 does it well for things like leather and such. It could only get better with more time and artistry. Tekken lowered the poly counts with each game for a reason. More/ better artistry reducing the need for polys etc.

 

[EsppiraK]

Nice! Doesn't look like they'd need to double up on geometry everywhere. Just spots where they'd want the effect. I will say i think speculars would work well enough. Doa2 does it well for things like leather and such. It could only get better with more time and artistry. Tekken lowered the poly counts with each game for a reason. More/ better artistry reducing the need for polys etc.

I was actually experimenting with something similar the other day with Naomilib and the DOA 2 engine, you can set colors for ambient, difuse and specular.

 

[Sonicfan]

I was actually experimenting with something similar the other day with Naomilib and the DOA 2 engine, you can set colors for ambient, difuse and specular.

Wow! Please show this in a full stage sometime!!! the amount they were holding back with DC is unbelievable!

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Wow! Please show this in a full stage sometime!!! the amount they were holding back with DC is unbelievable!

Could be things weren't as efficient, I know sc2 guy told me ninja1 was horribly slow with specular highlights but ninja2 was much much much improved in that regard. It's not free since it adds more complexity to lighting model which then adds more burden to the CPU. So it's probably not about holding back but more about sdk efficiency. Could be Naomi lib was far faster than ninja 1( compare how many games in Naomi lib use speculat vs ninja 1 games) .

 

[Cloofoofoo]

I was actually experimenting with something similar the other day with Naomilib and the DOA 2 engine, you can set colors for ambient, difuse and specular.

I always wondered what degree of control you had over that using that exporter, seems to be the same or better. I know ninja2 had the limitation of not being able to mix bump map plus environment map.

 

[Sonicfan]

Could be things weren't as efficient, I know sc2 guy told me ninja1 was horribly slow with specular highlights but ninja2 was much much much improved in that regard. It's not free since it adds more complexity to lighting model which then adds more burden to the CPU. So it's probably not about holding back but more about sdk efficiency. Could be Naomi lib was far faster than ninja 1( compare how many games in Naomi lib use speculat vs ninja 1 games) .

Yeah, doa2 was using very early kits, so probably didn't have the access they needed

 

[xaeroxcore]

Nice! Doesn't look like they'd need to double up on geometry everywhere. Just spots where they'd want the effect. I will say i think speculars would work well enough. Doa2 does it well for things like leather and such. It could only get better with more time and artistry. Tekken lowered the poly counts with each game for a reason. More/ better artistry reducing the need for polys etc.

And that´s why we needed a similar approach on DC games. As it was stated on this thread, Ninja 2 wasnt even used as it should be on DC lifespan. Now everything rest on community!

 

[davis.anthony]

Did not see this post, but this just proves that you haven't played the game on Dreamcast, this floor also has reflections on the Dreamcast on the original game, it just that the angle where those reflections are seen is different between versions, If you move the camera there are angles where the ps2 version won't show any where the Dreamcast does.

I play it 20+ years ago.

But use your eyeballs, they're not there in DC in that shot.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

I play it 20+ years ago.

But use your eyeballs, they're not there in DC in that shot.

That's makes no sense. He just told you they both are calculating the angles for when it's transparent differently. I personally extracted that stage off the disc and I assure you the reflected part is modeled underneath. It's not even debatable that it's there.

 

[xaeroxcore]

I play it 20+ years ago.

But use your eyeballs, they're not there in DC in that shot.

Also did you use your eyeballs to see how jagged, lower res and lesser colorful is PS2 version vs DC on that very same shot you posted? And no mention reflections may are not on that specifi shot, but if you actually play the game you´ll see them there.

 

[davis.anthony]

That's makes no sense. He just told you they both are calculating the angles for when it's transparent differently. I personally extracted that stage off the disc and I assure you the reflected part is modeled underneath. It's not even debatable that it's there.

It's not there in my screen shot.

Happy to see a side by side of DC having reflections and PS2 having none.

 

[davis.anthony]

Also did you use your eyeballs to see how jagged, lower res and lesser colorful is PS2 version vs DC on that very same shot you posted? And no mention reflections may are not on that specifi shot, but if you actually play the game you´ll see them there.

How about you show me a side by side and actual proof instead of deflecting to another talking point entirely.

 

[Nesh]

That's makes no sense. He just told you they both are calculating the angles for when it's transparent differently. I personally extracted that stage off the disc and I assure you the reflected part is modeled underneath. It's not even debatable that it's there.

Were there two versions of DOA2 released on the DC too?
Out of curiosity I searched and they dont look visible on the DC footage heare

Edit1: Cancel that. Just found in this footage the reflections are visible only from a certain angle which I find weird whereas the PS2 version has reflection on all angles

Edit2: Cancel that again. I dont think thats a reflection. It looks like the floor is transparent on certain angle and you can actually see the environment behind the floor. Not that PS2 or the DC had any real reflections to begin with. It was a duplication of the environment.

Edit3: It is actually both. An "actual reflection" is visible and not visible on similar angles sometimes, and a particular angle actually shows the background behind the floor. The floor has an unstable transparency it seems

 

[davis.anthony]

Were there two versions of DOA2 released on the DC too?
Out of curiosity I searched and they dont look visible on the DC footage heare

Cancel that. Just found in this footage the reflections are visible only from a certain angle which I find weird whereas the PS2 version has reflection on all angles

On this whole stage floor, the PS2 version has reflections.

DC floor has no reflections at all.

The more I look at side by sides the more I'm seeing how much extra stuff PS2 is rendering.

 

[Sonicfan]

On this whole stage floor, the PS2 version has reflections.

DC floor has no reflections at all.

The more I look at side by sides the more I'm seeing how much extra stuff PS2 is rendering.

View attachment 11591

That's not a limitation of the hardware @EsppiraK already proved that the reflections could be there. Also even said the reflections are calculated differently on the opera stage to where it's not there on certain angles on ps2 as well.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Were there two versions of DOA2 released on the DC too?
Out of curiosity I searched and they dont look visible on the DC footage heare

Edit1: Cancel that. Just found in this footage the reflections are visible only from a certain angle which I find weird whereas the PS2 version has reflection on all angles

Edit2: Cancel that again. I dont think thats a reflection. It looks like the floor is transparent on certain angle and you can actually see the environment behind the floor. Not that PS2 or the DC had any real reflections to begin with. It was a duplication of the environment.

Edit3: It is actually both. An "actual reflection" is visible and not visible on similar angles sometimes, and a particular angle actually shows the background behind the floor. The floor has an unstable transparency it seems

Yeah there's two. The first release and limited edition. Limited edition added some of the PS2 stuff like costume and extended stages as well as kasumi higher polygon model. That's irrelevant. here's a screenshot from the vanilla version of doa2 dreamcast. The floor still reflects the walls. It's there. and like I said the stage assets actually show it's modeled underneath. There's no difference with the PS2 version other than different angles.

 

[davis.anthony]

That's not a limitation of the hardware

Where did I say it was?

@espalready proved that the reflections could be there.

Did they add reflections to a retail game, run it on actual hardware and then check if it has no performance drop?

Also even said the reflections are calculated differently on the opera stage to where it's not there on certain angles on ps2 as well.

And has yet to provide a side by side.

 

[Sonicfan]

Yeah there's two. The first release and limited edition. Limited edition added some of the PS2 stuff like costume and extended stages as well as kasumi higher polygon model. That's irrelevant. here's a screenshot from the vanilla version of doa2 dreamcast. The floor still reflects the walls. It's there. and like I said the stage assets actually show it's modeled underneath. There's no difference with the PS2 version other than different angles.

Other models were enhanced, too. Like zack's mowhawk and others. I truly wish they'd done one more release to add all the hardcore stuff, but at the time they were trying to make it look like DC didn't have enough disc space to fit it. The even said that before the Japanese version came out

 

[xaeroxcore]

How about you show me a side by side and actual proof instead of deflecting to another talking point entirely.

Glad you asked!

I made my own comparison of the best DOA 2 versions on PS2 vs DC 2 yrs ago on my YouTube channel!

Gameplay comparison starts on 6:51




So...no reflections on DC? And my point was, let´s assume yes, reflections are weaker or non existent on DC, there is plenty of other things which make DC version looks overall better over PS2 port. Even there is @Cloofoofoo telling you he has extracted the assests that proofs reflections on DC exists....But you insist, becuase you can´t see it on a YT video, even when you accept haven´t played the actual game on the last 20 years, when most people here have the actual games and consoles to compare literally right now.