Could Dreamcast et al handle this/that fighter? *spawn

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by xaeroxcore, Aug 19, 2014.

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  1. Cloofoofoo

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    Well the only other game I can remember using bumpmap is tomb raider the last revelation, it was a touted feature. It's on some parts of the walls and floor. It's a Windows ce game though. When walls and floors are close to the camera the texture seems to "shift" imo. I guessing only things that are close to you are bumpmapped. You might have to brighten your screen if you want to check it out. The game is dark as hell.
     
  2. Garrett Weaving

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    What have I done???!!!

    [​IMG]

    I had forgotten just how crisp everything looks with a VGA cable. Some games benefit greatly, others... not so much. I also found out that my VMs had been corrupted and many files lost :(. Ain't no way I'm ever trying to beat Sonic Adventure 2 again though hahahaha.
    Anyway, here's Rayman 2, taken with a Xiaomi Redmi 4a by shooting directly at the CRT monitor.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I'll also provide some video footage, shitty as it may be, perhaps someone will be able to get something out of this.

    https://streamable.com/42j4i

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no bump mapping evident here. It really seems to be using a technique that's similar to "Detail Textures" from Unreal. I can't remember if the PC version did anything similar, but it does look pretty good all things considered.
     
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  3. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
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    impossible to understand anything from the video :p
    But maybe its impossible because there is nothing there
     
  4. Shifty Geezer

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    Nice try! Can't see much but it really is indistinguishable from a detail texture. If it was bump mapping, it was the most pointless resource-wasting implementation ever. ;)
     
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  5. TapamN

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    Oh, hey. That old thing. I'm actually working towards an interactive normal map demo that people can run on real hardware to allow people to experiment with. There will be a couple different models and shading methods to pick and you'll be able to rotate the model and light source and see what the results are.
    With the PVR, the only real overhead to normal maps is on the CPU, transforming the light vector into texture space and converting it to polar coordinates. For a static light source, there is no difference in CPU load, GPU polygon throughput, or fillrate, as far as I can tell. This is compared to a regular detail texture; the PVR only has one TMU, so multitexturing requires multiple passes, but the same number of passes (two) are required for diffuse + detail or diffuse + normal. The only difference I can think of is that a standard detail texture would be much more texture compression friendly than a normal map.
     
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  6. milk

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    Well, in Rayman's use, the advantage of normalmaps is they end up with more variety of resulting looks across the level. The same texture would look slightly differently at each angle, something you would not get with a standard RGB detail texture overlay.
     
  7. EsppiraK

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    Wow really looking forward to it!
     
  8. Simon F

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    OMG! I made that texture back in the late 90s to compare different bump map techniques**. I still have a JPG version of it.
    Now I do feel old.

    **Basically it was to show the "displacement" approach that one 3D card company were describing falls apart when trying to model light approaching from anything other than a subtle angle, whereas the PVR2 method worked.
     
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  9. TapamN

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    Yes, that's where it's from. I wish you uploaded a PNG instead of a JPEG of the height map, because the compression artifacts are kind of noticeable.

    Since you're here, can I ask a quick question about texture compression on the PVR? (If you remember after all this time) IIRC, you've mentioned before on the dcdev Yahoo group that 8 and 4 bit textures can be compressed, but homebrewers have discovered that apparently compression works on even rectangular and bump/normal textures, which surprises me. Games like Shenmue use uncompressed rectangular textures and compressed square textures but always take care to always avoid using compressed rectangular textures. It seems odd that games would consistently avoid them if they work.

    Do you remember if there a hardware reason that official games avoid them, like, they don't work on certain revisions of the hardware or they might not work if the chip is too warm? Same question with compressed normal maps, I would have expected that the dot product hardware would make some critical path too long or something when used with compression, but they seem to work as well? (I guess if 4/8 bit textures officially work, these should be enough timing slack for normal maps to work too...)
     
  10. Simon F

    Simon F Tea maker
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    I wish I had as well....but I simply didn't have the space on that host.

    I'm assuming here you mean the VQ compression on Series 2 (i.e. ARC1, Dreamcast /CLX2 & Neon250)
    Not sure what you meant here. The VQ decompression hardware could target (i.e. decompress to) either the default 16bpp textures (e.g. 565, 4444, NormalMaps) or 8bpp palette textures. The former achieved ~2bpp and the latter, ~1bpp.
    I don't recall that we had non-square textures on CLX2! Maybe we did...but I don't remember it<shrug> Or maybe MIP mapping didn't work with non-square. I'd have to go digging ... but I don't have the time. sorry
     
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