Color depth of Pixar CG type of movies (Toy Story?)

randycat99

Veteran
Can it be said that the cartoony look suggests an initial 16-bit color pallette, but due to the lighting gradations and highlighting, you get pushed over into a 24-bit presentation? Maybe that didn't sound too clear? I guess what I'm asking is in the process of making these productions, are artists brushing intentionally with vibrant 16-bit colors. Then when various lightings and effects are applied to these detailed solid models, you get all sorts of color gradations from the original 16-bit colors, thus expanding into 24-bit space ultimately.
 
Depends on the program I'd think. Maya lets you choose the quality settings for the final render, but Pixar uses their own proprietry software.
 
I would imagine they are either using 64bpp (4x16bits) colour or possibly 4xIEEE float.
 
I'd say Simon is probably the warmest... I don't have my PRman manual on me right now so I couldn't say for sure, but there's a good chance they're outputting Cineons which is a 10-bit per component format. Of course PRman 11 has some extensive HDRI support and I've only used up to version 10 so I don't know what output features have been added since...

Depends on the program I'd think. Maya lets you choose the quality settings for the final render, but Pixar uses their own proprietry software.

As far as renderers go, I don't think they use anything other than PRman. If they run into a limitation with it, then the fix likely becomes a feature in the next release! 8) As far as modeller/animation tools go, they probably build their workflow around Maya as that's the only platform that I think they provide a RIB generator for (MTOR), other RIB generators are provided by 3rd parties.
 
I think this discussion is veering off from what I originally intended (due to myself not being able to convey the fine point of my intent, of course). Let's start off with a simple example first. Let's say you are an artist, and you want to color your big furry monster model a straight blue. That blue, as handled by the software, may be a 16 bit pixel color, 24, 32, 64, whatever. It is still blue. Only 1 bit is lit to come up with that blue in any of those color schemes. There are just more zeros in the number as you go to greater bit depths. Does that mean that you could get away with just rendering at 4 bits color? Of course not. Once you apply all those funky effects and lighting to it, you need the extra color depth to capture the subtle deviations from that original base color, no? So I'm not trying to draw your attention to the pixel depth at which things are rendered, nor even the mode the software is in when first painting on your artwork. I'm drawing attention to how basic a color choice is typically used by the artist. Of course, they are not just going to be using straight blue, straight red, or straight green. Likely you would be using some shade of those primary colors or maybe some color derived from the mixture of those colors. What I'm questioning is would that color choice typically lie within a 16 bit range? I dunno- am I making any sense?
 
When selecting an initial color for an object you will be using 32bit. Anything lower and you are limiting your range, anything higher is beyond the realm of human comprehension(the color deviations aren't enough to be discernible by the human eye).

As far as utilizing a lower bit depth if you can get away with it, I've never even realized if any of the colors I was using on any of the models I've built(or textures for that matter) was one of the base colors that could be handled by lower precission. Once you start adding shaders, ray tracing if you are using it and/or radiosity the computation time for the final render is going to be so long that starting off with a lower level of color precission is going to amount to pretty much nothing in terms of saving time.

There is also the hardware acceleration end. Running in 16bit can enhance performance a decent amount on some hardware compared to 32bit, but modern rasterizers actually don't tend to like working in 256 color(8bit) mode and to the best of my knowledge not even any of the low end modeling packages support 8bit color(let alone Maya, SI, Lightwave, 3DSM etc).

What I'm questioning is would that color choice typically lie within a 16 bit range?

It could be that artists do end up chosing a 16bit level color on a not infrequent basis, but odds are they aren't going to even realize it. If you are working in PS, do you know if the color you are using is available at a lower bit depth then what you are using(honest question, I sure as hell don't ;) ).

I dunno- am I making any sense?

Yes, the question makes sense, although I think you'll find that anyone working with anything 3D is going to be running at least 32bit color. Besides the above mentioned issues with color, you also reduce your Z accuracy when you run lower then 32bit and 16bit Z is completely unacceptable for anything approaching pro level.
 
To reiterate, I'm not suggesting that artists are making their artwork in any sub-32 bit color mode supported by the software. I'm suggesting that artists naturally pick simpler base colors to start their production, regardless of the ultimate bit depth their software is operating in. I'm wondering if there is an unwritten persuasion to paint your models in simpler cartoon or pastel shades rather than painting in "photographic" shades. I'm guessing that attempting to paint in "photographic" shades to really pull off a real-life photographic look is very, very difficult, if at all feasible to do in a rapid production environment.
 
I'm suggesting that artists naturally pick simpler base colors to start their production, regardless of the ultimate bit depth their software is operating in. I'm wondering if there is an unwritten persuasion to paint your models in simpler cartoon or pastel shades rather than painting in "photographic" shades. I'm guessing that attempting to paint in "photographic" shades to really pull off a real-life photographic look is very, very difficult, if at all feasible to do in a rapid production environment.

Well that's kind've hard to answer without going into detail about what the particulars of what you're working would be... I'm traditionally trained so I have a tendency to work with rather basic colors and mess around with HSV sliders and eyeball it 'till it's close. However for certain things that exist in real-life like cars, tanks, planes, etc... If you can find out the color specs on the real thing that makes it a whole lot easier (at lease for a base color)...
 
Yes, you are getting my meaning now! :)

Logically, it would seem that real-existing mechanical things can be colored more realistically. It's when you move to things that don't exist or natural, organic things that don't have a clear, single shade is where it all breaks down, and the artist must make their way from more basic color shades as a beginning. It is a truly talented artist that can go from there and push the result to something approaching a photographic color grade representation. That's where the "real" artwork begins (or at least one important facet of it), I imagine. The tools of the software (in their current state) don't really facilitate making that jump (beyond simply giving you access to complex 32-bit color shades), I imagine. So it is up to the artist to bridge that gap (with varying levels of success).

So question is, what sort of revelation in tools would be required to make photographic color grade representations possible simply as a matter of routine? Can it even exist? Will it always be highly dependent on the artist's best swing?
 
BenSkywalker said:
When selecting an initial color for an object you will be using 32bit. Anything lower and you are limiting your range, anything higher is beyond the realm of human comprehension(the color deviations aren't enough to be discernible by the human eye).
But that means using a nonlinear representation of the colours in which case, to do the rendering/shading accurately, you have to convert to a linear representation. That then requires a much larger number of bits. (Actually, 24 bit for RGB is still insufficient but it's close enough (see Poynton's colour FAQ)).
 
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